Yeah a lot of high school superstars like Lutkenhaus while being physically talented, also benefit from early physical maturity. They have the bodies of 20-something year olds while still being chronological teenagers. This means they don't have as much upside and don't progress as much as athletes who aren't as physically mature. Tuohy, I believe, was like that.
This kid has so much upside, it's almost unfathomable.
800 WR on watch next ~2 years.
You would think so, but if I have learned anything as a runner and fan for over twenty five years; things can go south very quickly. It could be that if he goes for a higher volume and eventually intensity approach he may stagnate, regress, or get injured. Marco Arop went all in for training about a year ago and was certain he was in WR shape and it didn’t happen. You learn two things over the years from this sport: 1) Youth and potential are not what they cracked up to be. 2) Predictions are futile. There is this certain aspect that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, which his coach who appears to have a great deal of common sense seems to understand. He without question is physically mature beyond his age, so we need to keep that in mind and accept that he may not have as much room for improvement as many believe.
this is the guy no one wants to talk to at parties.
This guy is good for any age. And his coach is doing very smart things, like considering how much volume do you actually need for adaptation. Where is the sweet spot?
is it 6 x 400 m or 12 x 400? or ?
How much for the adaptation?
Anything more is a sad waste of time , begging injury.
This guy is good for any age. And his coach is doing very smart things, like considering how much volume do you actually need for adaptation. Where is the sweet spot?
is it 6 x 400 m or 12 x 400? or ?
How much for the adaptation?
Anything more is a sad waste of time , begging injury.
Our veteran posts are not falling on deaf ears.
Yes. He is. This is spot on. And the last thing he should do is to radically change up his training chasing some mystical mega improvement which may or may not be there. He's got a lot of time to chip away at it.
That being said, the 800 is the event that has seen more prodigy national record setters disappear thatn any other. And the ones who disappear seem to come from the low volume, high speed camp: George Kersh, Michael Granville, Cade Flatt.
I don't know a ton about Kersh, but Granville and Flatt were well known for their high intensity low volume approach. And honestly, I don't know that typical "800 training" that pros / adults do is totally suitable for younger runners and long term progress. For example, the 11 other guys that lined up against my guy in the CA state finals a couple of years ago ran slower the following year, whether they were still in HS or had moved on to college.
Not trying to self aggrandize with that previous statement, just trying to point out that year over year progression in young 800 dudes is no sure thing.
A teenager benefits from a power to weight ratio they'll likely never improve on, has enormous powers of regeneration, and can shift between type I and II muscle fibres at the drop of a hat. It's why some teenage phenoms never improve. My advice: enjoy everything that you're doing now; you may already be brushing your head on your genetic ceiling.
No 16 or 17 year old is brushing up against their genetic ceiling in the middle distances. Period.
They may not each their potential - but it will be due to lifestyle changes, injuries, and lack of interest in improving incrementally or non-linearly, but they certainly aren’t limited by genetics.
A teenager benefits from a power to weight ratio they'll likely never improve on, has enormous powers of regeneration, and can shift between type I and II muscle fibres at the drop of a hat. It's why some teenage phenoms never improve. My advice: enjoy everything that you're doing now; you may already be brushing your head on your genetic ceiling.
No 16 or 17 year old is brushing up against their genetic ceiling in the middle distances. Period.
They may not each their potential - but it will be due to lifestyle changes, injuries, and lack of interest in improving incrementally or non-linearly, but they certainly aren’t limited by genetics.
That’s foolish - even for early-developing guys.
Even if there is a modicum of truth to his musings and following the Jim Ryun precocious prodigy model, CL still has 2-3 years to reach his “peak,” and then try to maintain it. The kid remains a teenager for three more outdoor seasons.
This kid has so much upside, it's almost unfathomable.
800 WR on watch next ~2 years.
You would think so, but if I have learned anything as a runner and fan for over twenty five years; things can go south very quickly. It could be that if he goes for a higher volume and eventually intensity approach he may stagnate, regress, or get injured. Marco Arop went all in for training about a year ago and was certain he was in WR shape and it didn’t happen. You learn two things over the years from this sport: 1) Youth and potential are not what they cracked up to be. 2) Predictions are futile. There is this certain aspect that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, which his coach who appears to have a great deal of common sense seems to understand. He without question is physically mature beyond his age, so we need to keep that in mind and accept that he may not have as much room for improvement as many believe.
I agree with everything you said especially the part about volume - a 400/800 athlete needs to train as such - I don’t think he needs to go over 30mpw except maybe in base training
There's a realistic chance that he only has another 3 or 4 seasons, counting this one, to reach his all time best mark. but he should be able to continue beyond that, for several seasons, at a very high level. More strength base work may be needed to keep his body strong for a 10-12 year career.
And I'm not saying a ton. I'm not the most educated on 800 training. And anyway, it really does feel like he's doing it the right way.
You would think so, but if I have learned anything as a runner and fan for over twenty five years; things can go south very quickly. It could be that if he goes for a higher volume and eventually intensity approach he may stagnate, regress, or get injured. Marco Arop went all in for training about a year ago and was certain he was in WR shape and it didn’t happen. You learn two things over the years from this sport: 1) Youth and potential are not what they cracked up to be. 2) Predictions are futile. There is this certain aspect that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, which his coach who appears to have a great deal of common sense seems to understand. He without question is physically mature beyond his age, so we need to keep that in mind and accept that he may not have as much room for improvement as many believe.
I agree with everything you said especially the part about volume - a 400/800 athlete needs to train as such - I don’t think he needs to go over 30mpw except maybe in base training
agree, 30 per week, with maybe a bit more during base training seems plenty. unless he finds himself in a place where it feels like he could be become the best miler in the world, which I don't anticipate. you can always re-evaluate down the road based on new info
A teenager benefits from a power to weight ratio they'll likely never improve on, has enormous powers of regeneration, and can shift between type I and II muscle fibres at the drop of a hat. It's why some teenage phenoms never improve. My advice: enjoy everything that you're doing now; you may already be brushing your head on your genetic ceiling.
No 16 or 17 year old is brushing up against their genetic ceiling in the middle distances. Period.
They may not each their potential - but it will be due to lifestyle changes, injuries, and lack of interest in improving incrementally or non-linearly, but they certainly aren’t limited by genetics.
That’s foolish - even for early-developing guys.
Many people who are jealous of young runners who achieve early success dig at them in roundabout ways with remarks about being physically mature, likely not to improve and so on. This is because they are hoping the youngster won’t continue to develop, hoping they won’t succeed.
You and Ungus carrying the torch for Armstronglivs. He stayed up very late to try and argue with everyone yesterday so he apparently needed a breather lol.
On a serious note, hopefully Cooper’s coach stays the course and doesn’t try to overdo things. The kid has a legit shot at the WR if things keep rolling as they have been. The kid should be one of the X-Men.
As long as you truly know that we were being sarcastic…
I agree with everything else you said. Don’t fix what ain’t broken. Stay the course.
Oh, and as other posters have pointed out, his 46.3 last year was well before he dropped his 800 PR, so he was probably closer to that 45.3 relay split even last August. That he might be capable of dipping under 45 should shock absolutely no one.
That he might be capable of "dipping under 45" means a 1.5 sec improvement on his 400 pr. So that translates to a 3 sec improvement on his 800 pr - which would be 1:39x.
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
As long as you truly know that we were being sarcastic…
I agree with everything else you said. Don’t fix what ain’t broken. Stay the course.
Oh, and as other posters have pointed out, his 46.3 last year was well before he dropped his 800 PR, so he was probably closer to that 45.3 relay split even last August. That he might be capable of dipping under 45 should shock absolutely no one.
That he might be capable of "dipping under 45" means a 1.5 sec improvement on his 400 pr. So that translates to a 3 sec improvement on his 800 pr - which would be 1:39x. The only way it doesn't is if he was jogging his 400 pr. Not likely.
Speaking of jealous people….He’s back! The correlation you draw between between an automatic match in improvement between an improvement in 400m speed to 800m speed is ridiculous. So many other factors are involved.
Why so you absolutely refuae to acknowledge that Cooper’s 400m PR came after he run a 1:47 800m, and that just might have taken a bit out of him for the one lapper?
That he might be capable of "dipping under 45" means a 1.5 sec improvement on his 400 pr. So that translates to a 3 sec improvement on his 800 pr - which would be 1:39x. The only way it doesn't is if he was jogging his 400 pr. Not likely.
Speaking of jealous people….He’s back! The correlation you draw between between an automatic match in improvement between an improvement in 400m speed to 800m speed is ridiculous. So many other factors are involved.
Why so you absolutely refuae to acknowledge that Cooper’s 400m PR came after he run a 1:47 800m, and that just might have taken a bit out of him for the one lapper?
Why wouldn't a 1.5 sec improvement over one lap mean a 3 sec improvement over 2 laps for an 800 runner?
He has run the 400 numerous times and so had opportunities to reduce his pr from 46.3. He hasn't.
Speaking of jealous people….He’s back! The correlation you draw between between an automatic match in improvement between an improvement in 400m speed to 800m speed is ridiculous. So many other factors are involved.
Why so you absolutely refuae to acknowledge that Cooper’s 400m PR came after he run a 1:47 800m, and that just might have taken a bit out of him for the one lapper?
Why wouldn't a 1.5 sec improvement over one lap mean a 3 sec improvement over 2 laps for an 800 runner?
He has run the 400 numerous times and so had opportunities to reduce his pr from 46.3. He hasn't.
We now have proof of Armstronglivs lying through his teeth. Lutkenhaus hasn’t raced at 400m at all since last May, when he ran the 400 as the second race of a double. He knows this and yet he LIES!!! LIES!!! Never mind the silliness of believing that a 1.5 second improvement over 400m will of course automatically translate to 3 seconds improvement over 800m. Think of how silly that really is, especially at high level, world class level running. Has this man ever competed? Has he ever coached? Has he ever jogged around the block? Lutkenhaus at 17 is world class. This fact has driven Armstronglivs starkers!!!
Why wouldn't a 1.5 sec improvement over one lap mean a 3 sec improvement over 2 laps for an 800 runner?
He has run the 400 numerous times and so had opportunities to reduce his pr from 46.3. He hasn't.
We now have proof of Armstronglivs lying through his teeth. Lutkenhaus hasn’t raced at 400m at all since last May, when he ran the 400 as the second race of a double. He knows this and yet he LIES!!! LIES!!! Never mind the silliness of believing that a 1.5 second improvement over 400m will of course automatically translate to 3 seconds improvement over 800m. Think of how silly that really is, especially at high level, world class level running. Has this man ever competed? Has he ever coached? Has he ever jogged around the block? Lutkenhaus at 17 is world class. This fact has driven Armstronglivs starkers!!!
Thoughtsleader has said (on another thread) that Lutkenhaus has frequently raced over the 400. I took his word for it. So he hasn't had only one opportunity to run a pr.
You haven't explained why a 1.5 sec improvement over 400 won't mean a 3 sec improvement over 800. It's proportionately the same level of improvement. Or maybe it makes a nonsense of the claim he can go out and carve 1.5 secs off his best 400 time. He hasn't made any improvement so far.