Sam Mattis breaks 43-year-old doped up US discus record, 72.45 in Ramona

I think when I’ve heard people talk about it they usually mean a fully enclosed stadium. This would definitely be hard to officiate below the world championship or diamond league level

I'd rather see a record set due to wind than due to dope.

You actually think any of those guys at the meet are clean? Clean throwers?

from a thread a year ago I posted on the Denny/Alekna performances at Ramona...

This was regarding WR holder Alekna:

"Outside of Ramona, Oklahoma, his lifetime best throw is 71.00m from 2023 (note: it's now 72.12). Last season (the WR season) his next best meets yielded pretty consistent results - 70.70 in Marrakech, 70.91 in Oslo, 70.20 at the Istvan Gyuli meet, 69.97 in Paris and in general he was very consistent in all meets between 67.50 and 71.00. Except for this one meet in an open field in Oklahoma with a population of 544 people." (Alekna has thrown 74.35, 74.89 and 75.56 - all in Ramona, but never further than 72.12 elsewhere)

regarding Matthew Denny:

"Denny is similar but even more eye-opening. He had never broken 70 in his life - including in two meets this season in Australia where he threw 67.82 and 68.17 (right in line with his mid-high 60m level that he ascended to in 2021 at the age of 24, until walking into a discus circle, again in Ramona, Oklahoma." (he's now thrown 74.78, 74.25 and 72.07 in Ramona, never further than 70.52 elsewhere)

Looking on google maps it seems they have two cages to take advantage of the wind but as the post above pointed out, unlike the sprints there is no such thing as a "legal" wind reading needed for throws. And honestly that seems weird given like a sprint, if the wind is favorable there is no negating impact (like with 400m and up). I mean we have tracks at altitude that favor sprinters (Colorado springs), tracks that favor distance runners (Monaco - close to water), tracks in great locations in general (I think of Rieti, slightly at altitude, perfect running conditions for almost all distances when they still had the meet) - so far be it for me to hate on a great throwing venue but the performance advantage here seems seems really high. Like a little too much. When you turn a 71.00m guy into a 74.35 guy - that's a 4.7% improvement. For Denny it's a 6.1% increase. That pushes into the "yeah, maybe no" category for me.

There are some really interesting things at play.

1) That the former IAAF, now WA even ratifies non-stadia marks in any event for which the primary field of play (ie. where an Olympic, World title is won etc) is in-stadia. The track equivalent would be like building multiple 100m-only straightaways in multiple directions at a venue that was say at high altitude where the prevailing winds were consistently in the 4-5mph range and WA ratifying the performances there as legal and WR eligible (maybe they would - anyone have a spare couple of million and we can build it? Fran Hoey perhaps? :D)

2) Secondly that they (the WA) never looked into the benefit of wind on discus throws, I'm guessing because the chances you get the direction and magnitude of wind speed perfect for discus throwing in-stadia would probably seem impossible. I can't remember many track meets where the top guys would all come to throw where the wind speed on track approached a consistent 25mph (12-13m/s) which is what Alekna and Denny both had in their throws. I checked the wind data for the day of Mattis's throw and in the afternoon the winds were between 16 and 30 mph so clearly if you waiting and timed your throw, the wind benefit could be astronomical.

Thanks for reposting... very interesting. Hard to compare with running, as a race like the 100m is the same for everyone, while field event take place over time. Wind may vary during a 1 hour event, especially in a stadium.

I wish I could watch this frame by frame. Looks like a the discuss was way behind his hip when his left foot landed. Hard to believe how far his arm is back. Great release.

I don't get the "compare with running" connection. When it comes to the WR and lowering it in the 100m (or any distance) the conditions are never the same for everyone? Carl Lewis once held the WR at 9.92 with a +1.2 wind and lost it to Burrel who ran 9.90 with a +1.9. Bolt ran his with a +0.9 and this doesn't take into account the track surface either. On the extreme end, Flo-Jo ran the womens WR with something way over 4.0m/s and the gauge malfunctioned and gave her 0.0.

The issue with performances at Ramona are 1) there are at least 2 cages oriented purposely to work with the prevailing winds this area gets and 2) the location means these winds are consistently higher and more consistent (ie. not gusty) than almost anything you will find in a "regular" stadium (certainly any stadium which holds a DL, any permit meet, basically any meet these guys would usually throw at), which are by in large located in urban areas that yes get windy, but don't get windy like the great plains of the United States do (and Oklahoma is considered a plains state).

I'm not an expert on the optimal wind for discus, though I did once read up a little on the Ramona factor and I know the optimum wind direction is actually at a diagonal to the throw which must support the basic lift of a spinning disc. I wonder if one of these top guys hit a 40 mph (a fresh gale) wind could they still spin and release effectively and throw what, 78-80m?

This....