BU times are fake, let's be honest

Never needed to consume bicarb because I learned in Physiology that the human body naturally makes the ingredients that buffer acids that bicarb is supposed to help with. I guess all the ppl thinking that bicarb works aren’t aware of what the body can do on its own with training and a reasonably healthy diet. “The human body buffers [acts to neutralize] muscle acid (specifically hydrogen ions, H+) produced during high-intensity exercise primarily through intracellular [within the muscle cells] chemical buffers—proteins, phosphates, and carnosine—that immediately bind H+. The bicarbonate buffering system then neutralizes excess acid in the blood, converting it into CO2 which is exhaled.” This means that it doesn’t matter how much bicarb a person consumes when their muscles have not first used their own buffers inside the muscle cells. Bicarbonate works in the blood, not in the muscles, and the body produces it anyway, so taking bicarb which could cause nausea and vomiting is really most effective at making supplement-sellers rich and not necessarily improving performance which the sellers claim (and sponsor research to the effect of).

Yeah. That's the point. You run out of your own and then the bicarb gives you a little extra. Isn't that obvious?

800 is 800

Every single winter we have the same discussion on the MB about the BU track when the volume of insane performances roll in across those 3 major meets (Terrier, Valentine, L/C).

And every year I link the same article from Geoff Burns which explains it far more in depth than I can.

But in a nutshell two things:

1) The track is asymmetrically banked and the high point of each curve is closer to the straight it began from. The theory is that you use your straight line momentum to crest the apex of the curve faster and then accelerate down from that point into the next straight (vs having to work just that much harder to reach the apex if it was dead center of the turn). Because of that they can make the max banking angle 18 degrees which makes that slingshot out of the turn far more extreme and performance beneficial.

but the biggest thing by far....

2) The structure of BU is a wooden frame with large unsupported voids between the sections of the plywood substrate. In contrast the recently renovated JDL track is a metal frame with a really tight network of joists so each piece of plywood substrate is very well supported. The support matters because it's the lack thereof that allows the plywood to flex and rebound. Imagine taking a 4x8 piece of 3/4 inch plywood and propping it off the ground in with 2 inch thick blocks only in the corners. If you stepped in the middle of that board it would flex considerably. The more blocks you added underneath it in even spacings, the less it would flex. The BU track was designed to have the bare minimum of "support" allowing the boards to flex and rebound at their absolute max.

Yeah it's a fast track - when you factor in the climate control it's probably the single fastest oval to run on in the world indoors or out and can be proven scientifically (as if the absurd volume of elite performances there aren't enough circumstantially). And many never run as fast outdoors as they do indoors. I mean the fastest 5000m ever run by an American was on that track - and it was done in the middle of February.

Here is the article again.

geoffreyburns.com

It pays be to be compliant: the physics of indoor track and “optimal” surfaces — GB

Geoff Burns

45 years ago, a young lad hailing from a southern suburb of Dublin ripped around the interior of Madison Square Garden 11 times. By doing so faster than six other gentlemen making the same prestigious rounds, he was crowned c...

Open link

Until next winter.

BU is probably faster than almost all outdoor tracks for most runners. That's ok. In a world with super spikes, bicarb, and now peptides (I don't even know what those are?), what's wrong with taking every advantage and running at BU?

maybe you is fake...on da stremph!

Nothing is wrong with it. The BU times just shouldn't be used for seeding purposes outdoors. You've got guys who ran outdoor times on a regular track getting put in slow heats (or maybe even not allowed to race) because some school had the money to fly across the country to race in Boston, when the athletes with BU pr's can't replicate them outdoors.

what's wrong? not everyone can race on it.

everyone can wear super shoes

everyone can buy bicarb

everyone can use whatever training method they want but not everyone can access the track.

that's the difference, see? ( and before you ask why... here's the answer, money)

I do believe the BU track is the fastest in the country and leads to many many PR's. The construction seems to be a significant reason why.

However, when people say that people don't replicate those times outdoors

1. is that true (i don't know for sure) - i'd love to see the data

2. the emphasis indoors is to run FAST because the NCAA limits participation to 16 a ridiculous people per event. This leads to races at BU with pacers, pace lights, and INTENTION to run fast. I was at Valentine and the men's meet had over 40 races with pacers. There is no other venue in the country doing that. Even for those in heat 10 or 11 there were pacers to get things going.

3. In years with world or olympic champs, professionals come with the same intent

4. the energy at BU is contagious - heat after heat people chase PR's.

In addition to the actual fast track, I think those are MAJOR factors. When it comes to outdoors, the NCAA folks are just trying to get into regionals and then advance from there; they often use March - May as a big training block to be ready for regionals, nationals and summer.

Fairly confident you ran slow there

Why not? How many runners that missed D1 nationals by 1.5 or fewer seconds in the mile *couldn't* race at BU because of money? I just checked the list from last year. There are about 10 such runners, not counting altitude conversions (there were 24 men total, but most of them ran their times at BU too). I do not believe any of those runners who ran 3:54-3:55low were prevented from going to BU by their team's budget, rather by scheduling preference. They are from schools like OK State, Villanova, Iowa State, and Washington, which all, if I'm not mistaken have large budgets.

There may be arguments for teams in D2 and D3. I don't believe that except in extremely rare instances, that there are runners of the caliber of qualifying for D1 indoor nationals that don't make it because they were *unable* to race at BU, rather because they chose not to.

I told you why... it's in the post you responded to.

I'm sorry you don't like the answer but it's true.

Not everyone can run on that track.

Asking how many missed is a deflection since, of course, we can never know how many missed because why? Because it didn't happen and you can't know.

I never said there was?

And that track is faster than any outdoor track and will be until they construct a full 400m banked oval on a hollow structure that allows it to flex and rebound. Even the best mondo surfaces with honeycomb/saw-tooth style base layers can't compete with a thin layer of flexible wood on a hollow structure. That is a simple mechanical reality.

There is nothing wrong with running at BU and taking advantage of it. I actually think a summer meet there where guys were right in absolute peak fitness would be an incredible spectacle - especially events from the mile upwards. Hocker just ran 3.45.9 on a mechanically inferior surface in February. God knows what he could do in August at BU.

You need to look at all divisions. I bet a lot more d2, 3, and naia guys miss nats because they don't get the BU bump.

Agree with the poster who claimed that - although not everyone PB's at BU - social the conditions are there to do so. Reminds me of an 800m only night in Toronto (40 heats of only 800's), where lots of kids run fast, not because the track is short (as one parent claimed) but because people (with pacers) expect to run fast. I think (and it is a fast track) that situation exists at the BU meets - people expect to run fast. Although I find it hard to reconcile that oversize tracks (300m) are much slower than a 200m track, and in fact are an advantage for the sprints. Pacing lights also help the distance kids (and pacers), even with the fast spikes and bicarb that are now the norm.

The sprinters (see the 400m) certainly are not racing any faster at BU, which is why they don't expect to go fast - sprint fields are normally less well attended, and pacers don't exist either.

People forget the psychological effect that good racing conditions provide. BYU seems to believe in the BU track, or why did they go to BU rather than Washington. Boston College went to Washington to get a DMR qualifier - if it was just about the track, why wouldn't they run at BU (they could walk there).

Im okay with super shoes, Im ok with bicarb. But for some reason, I dont like BU track times.

Yikes! Wait till you hear bouncy-shoes times.

Well in the most basic sense the longer a track is, the less tight the curves are and the more beneficial that is for fast running. We even see a difference in outdoor tracks with curve size. For example, Stockholm has super long straights (right at the max dimension allowed by WA) with tighter curves and Monaco a few meters shorter with slightly softer curves.

In laymans terms a 400m indoor oval that is banked and built like BU would be fastest running surface physically possible to make. But even just putting a flat 400m oval indoors is far more beneficial to performance because you eliminate climate variables such as wind and temp.

The reason that don't see sprinters running much faster at BU and indoors in general is because at some point the speed of running vs the tightness of the curves becomes an issue. Running at 9.0 m/s around a tight curve (a 44.0 400m) is just really difficult with respect to overcoming the rotational inertia of the athlete. Running at 7.15 m/s (a 3.45 mile pace) is much much easier because obviously the speed is lower and the athletes usually have much less mass (think 180 pounds + for an elite 400m runner vs 140-150 pounds for many elite milers).

BU has the magic now of the physical properties of the track and psychological impact of athletes and coaches now knowing it's science and not just coincidence.

No, come on do some basic research. Bicarbonate is an Extra-Cellular buffer.