Should they ban Bicarb ?

Cost is becoming increasingly immaterial in this discussion. I know of at least two copy-cat products on the market that are almost half the price of Maurten.

Seeing as how this is a 'natural' supplement I doubt it will get banned. Maybe they'll limit how much you can take/have in your system at a competition that pays $$? Might as well ban performance enhancing laxatives while you're at it. Apparently it is helping, and along with faster shoes and better surfaces, records and all time lists will continue to lower. I mean, geez, what's next? - Runners spending an hour in a hyberbaric chamber while carefully taking just the right about of bi-carb and caffeine before a race to give the muscles more oxygen and a lactate buffer for that extra 2.3seconds a mile (or whatever)? Carbon fiber nanotech springs that shift around the shoe sole to maximize rate of return force upon toe off? (Don't laugh, something like this is probably coming down the road...) Or maybe like swimmers, they'll develop a 3-5mm full body suit that acts like CoolMax in removing heat/perspiration, but reduces drag though the fluid (air) medium by 3%, thus lowering times another few tenths to a second per mile or something. Sheesh. At this point I think I'd rather just watch my two nephews run across the backyard and back to see who does it faster...but no times, no trophies, not even bragging rights...just having fun being kids and challenging themselves. Not caring about miles, supplements, heart rates, lactate zones, carbon fiber plate spikes, rules, NIL, etc. Just being kids and having fun. That leads me to this point:

I'm more worried/reflective on what younger athletes are doing, kids who aren't finished growing yet and the effects the newer supplements and technologies might be having on immature developed physiologies. A lot of research hasn't been done on whether training a lot in super stacked foam shoes (kind of keeps the calcaneal tendon from doing its job, along with tarsals/metatarsals in foot, etc) is going to increase soft tissue or even bone injuries. I do know of two cases of local athletes in my area who've had problems; one had two stress fractures back to back training in newer shoes...finally had to just only use them a couple times a week for workouts. Been running in 'older' type trainers on her easy days when training again. So far, since then, no problems. If a coach/team incorporates foot/ankle exercises during season/training, maybe that would help?

But as far as supplements go...hard to say...is it healthy to ingest bicarb or whatever 2,3x a week? On those kick a** harder days and race days? It may be derived from old baking soda which is used in a lot of food recipes, but is the body meant to have that on a regular basis while being subjected to physiological stress? Is it healthy to try and circumvent the normal lactate production while exercising (heavy anaerobic)? Isn't that system designed to slow your body to prevent damage (high blood acidosis/low pH) and give the liver time to clean it out? Perhaps circumventing this time and time again long-term isn't healthy? I'm just asking thought questions. I'm not really for or against its use. But I agree with some posters on this issue in that the 'good old days' are gone. It's impossible to compare times now. And that leads me to my last point:

As someone who ran/cycled for 19 years (till injuries sidelined me permanently) I still love watching a good race, regardless of distance. But I see so much professionalization of everything that it worries me kids are forfeiting childhood. It's like every kid who has a modicum of talent goes to extremes on gear, tech, nutrition, etc from so early on copying their 'heroes'. Just have fun! Learn to love the day in and day out. I've told many high school athletes in my area that the discipline gained in this sport (if you do it long enough) carries over into areas of life and the running/sport is just one small part of the journey as a human - don't make it the only part! And that's what I fear is happening in the sport.

That was a long ramble.

Anyway Lactate isn't buffered. That's a popular misconception. Lactate production actually acts as a buffer.

If you believe that ingesting bicarbonate is a buffer, then do you believe that your natural bicarbonate buffering system is inadequate?

Not sure I'm following here. Are you arguing that bicarb doesn't really impart any benefit?

More like 32 bicarb pills

Massive? Based on the progression of WRs, if any, the combination of super shoes and bicarbs, make little difference.

I tried bicarb before a workout and I have no idea if it helped or not. Used it before another race that week, and not sure if it is because I did not eat enough but I felt completely shot the last half of the race. I would say its from not eating enough leading up to it, but that was my most recent bicarb experience.

I don't see the problem with 'professionalization'. As someone who did sports back in the 70s and 80s, I can say that a lot of fun was taken out of it because of the lack of professionalization. Nothing sucks more than putting time and effort into an activity and not getting results because of incompetent coaching, other people deciding for you that you shouldn't be serious about what you are doing, etc.

It goes along with the 'save it for college' mentality. College is a time when you should be putting all your time and effort into your future career. It's much better to max out sports when you are in high school and have more free time.

I don’t think bicarbonate or caffeine or elevation tents should be banned. Fast tracks and super shoes is another story. Pacing lights not sure. Regardless, times will keep improving and sadly it will be hard to compare apples to oranges. But Bekele times still better than Cheptegi in my opinion.

Lol. Anyone who thinks bicarb is solely to thank for better MD times needs their heads examined

Honestly how much benefit does it really have over placebo? I mean it would make senses it works but does it digest effectively to actually work? I think it is a very minor improvement and not worth enforcing a ban. Most bans also have to do with health- steroids, EPO, stimulates - all have negative health outcomes. Banning baking soda shouldn't be a priority.

Many studies have shown a significant (measurable) benefit of bicarb supplementation on athletic performance. The impact is usually anywhere from 1-3% depending on the study structure. That doesn't sound like a lot but its huge in running.

More anecdotally, consider the fact that over HALF of the distance medalists used bicarb at 2023 Worlds. Bicarb has risk of causing intense GI distress. Do you really think the best athletes in the world would risk that side effect in the biggest competition of the year if they didn't think it provided a real benefit?

That said, I agree with your last point. This should not be a priority. There's no way to effectively test for it, and I think baking soda sits in the realm of easily accessible to all. People have been using it forever. Only recently did they develop a way to eliminate/mitigate the side effects, but its still the same substance.

impossible to make a rule you can't enforce.

this is the land of the 50 IQ

Massive effect? Yes.

Horse racing? Barbaric industry in any case. Gorging animals on baking soda before races is the least of it, but OK.

Some react badly? Bad argument. Some people "react badly" to taking 100 grams of carbs per hour while running. Some people "react badly" to heavy training. Want to ban those?

Cost? Bicarb supplementation costs are coming down as more products hit the market. It isn't rocket science, and far, far from the most expensive part of pursuing elite running. (Which costs more: travel to training camps and time trials on tuned tracks, or a bicarb product to take for races?)

it's not impossible as they test it in horse racing and as for the 50 IQ ... You just brought the average down to 49 by posting .

Throwing stones in a glass house. ^

Enforcement in horse racing is done by blood draws immediately before races. They measure blood carbon dioxide, which is raised with bicarb supplementation but has a wide naturally occurring range and can be affected by anything from nutrition to training (also altitude and illness).

You think pre-races blood draws are going to happen in running? And that an agreed threshold can be set with no false-positives?

Absurd.

I think the new wave of amazing times is obviously due to the shoes. Also track building technology has to give a measurable benefit if the very best engineers and builders are involved.

But the biochemistry is very vague on the issue. People still demonize Lactate as Lactic acid, but the Lactate ion and hydrogen ions are two different things.

Yes they appear to accumulate in a 1:1(stoichiometric)ratio and we are supposed to believe that ingesting bicarbonate reduces this ratio, but there is another way to achieve this that doesn't involve ingesting bicarbonate.

Thanks for confirming what I said .. it's not impossible as you have just pointed out .

If you don't want a stone fight then don't throw the first stone - simple really !!

Who is "they"?