Pre was on the cover of sports illustrated. That is a more important indicator of his legacy than prs or even medals. Were any of the other runners mentioned cover boys like Pre? To classify Pre in the same category as Rupp is nonsense. Could you imagine Rupp on the cover for SI (lol)?
My sarcasm detector is broken today. You can’t be serious. In fact, I am sure you are kidding.
I say no. Frank Shorter is by every measure a much more accomplished runner. He's not a mythic figure like Pre.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses (I don’t have the win-loss record in front of me. I’ll check later). Granted his wins were mostly against collegiate and domestic competition, but still it’s pretty impressive. Where does he fit on the list? I’d put him somewhere around 18th in a top twenty male American distance runners list.
Now dying young does normally give someone already famous a kind of elevated mystique about them. I would say if he had lived that he would not have the kind of legendary status he has now from having died so young. I still think either way he is objectively a top 20 guy. Fourth place right outside of the medals and he beat several good guys. There’s also such things as star power and influence and no question he had both.
Frank accomplished all that at college age? I don't recall that. What's the comparison of the two up til age 22ish. I believe Pre was faster than frank at literaly every single distance on the track when he died. Also beat Frank in last race. Franks total career is best though. Dying certainly cements legend for many. But he walked the walk.
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I think one of the great things about both Pre and Shorter is that they were both clean athletes. Definitely not something everyone from that era can say.
I would like to believe that, but let’s face it we just don’t know. Pre looked like he was bulging on steroids and I could see Shorter being slippery enough to find some undetectable drug.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses (I don’t have the win-loss record in front of me. I’ll check later). Granted his wins were mostly against collegiate and domestic competition, but still it’s pretty impressive. Where does he fit on the list? I’d put him somewhere around 18th in a top twenty male American distance runners list.
Now dying young does normally give someone already famous a kind of elevated mystique about them. I would say if he had lived that he would not have the kind of legendary status he has now from having died so young. I still think either way he is objectively a top 20 guy. Fourth place right outside of the medals and he beat several good guys. There’s also such things as star power and influence and no question he had both.
I've said before that Pre's death reminds me of something that The Washington Post critic Tom Shales said about the death of Andy Kaufman: "It was a tragedy, but a good career move." Shorter was obviously vastly more accomplished as a runner, and his accomplishments, unlike Pre's, were largely against international competition.
so you think emmit smith is better than barry sanders i bet. Head to head pre held literally every record in the US. Frank-zero. Frank went on to become a legend for sure.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses (I don’t have the win-loss record in front of me. I’ll check later). Granted his wins were mostly against collegiate and domestic competition, but still it’s pretty impressive. Where does he fit on the list? I’d put him somewhere around 18th in a top twenty male American distance runners list.
Now dying young does normally give someone already famous a kind of elevated mystique about them. I would say if he had lived that he would not have the kind of legendary status he has now from having died so young. I still think either way he is objectively a top 20 guy. Fourth place right outside of the medals and he beat several good guys. There’s also such things as star power and influence and no question he had both.
Frank accomplished all that at college age? I don't recall that. What's the comparison of the two up til age 24. I believe Pre was faster than frank at every single distance on the track when he died. Also beat Frank in last race. Franks total career is best though. Dying certainly cements legend for many. But he walked the walk.
It doesn’t matter what the age comparison is. That’s completely irrelevant. Frank Shorter won gold and silver Olympic medals. He pulled up big twice and achieved the pinnacle of the sport. Shorter won four Fukuokas, two US 10k titles, multiple road races, the pan am games, and several USA number 1 rankings in the 10k and marathon. His accomplishments in races that matter dwarfed Prefontaine’s. Their PRs are close enough that that isn’t much of an advantage for Pre in this discussion. Pre didn’t win anything as big as Shorter did.
I say no. Frank Shorter is by every measure a much more accomplished runner. He's not a mythic figure like Pre.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses (I don’t have the win-loss record in front of me. I’ll check later). Granted his wins were mostly against collegiate and domestic competition, but still it’s pretty impressive. Where does he fit on the list? I’d put him somewhere around 18th in a top twenty male American distance runners list.
Now dying young does normally give someone already famous a kind of elevated mystique about them. I would say if he had lived that he would not have the kind of legendary status he has now from having died so young. I still think either way he is objectively a top 20 guy. Fourth place right outside of the medals and he beat several good guys. There’s also such things as star power and influence and no question he had both.
Don't know if Shorter ever beat Pre. I do know Pre beat him
1. 1971 USA Outdoor Track & Field Championships — 3 Miles Date & Location: June 25, 1971, Eugene, Oregon Event: 3 miles at the AAU Championships (USA Outdoor) Results: Steve Prefontaine — 12:58.6 (Meet & American Record) Steve Stageberg — 13:00.4 Frank Shorter — 13:02.4 Outcome: Prefontaine defeated Shorter by ~4 seconds. Wikipedia 🏃♂️ 2. 1974 Hayward Restoration Meet — 3 Miles Date & Location: ~June 1974, Hayward Field, Eugene, Oregon Event: 3 miles at the Eugene Restoration Meet (precursor to the Prefontaine Classic) Results Summary: Steve Prefontaine won the race in 12:51.4, setting an American Record. Frank Shorter finished second in the same race.
🏃♂️ 3. May 29, 1975 — 5000 Meters Date & Location: May 29, 1975, at Hayward Field (Twilight Meet) Event: 5000 meters Results: Steve Prefontaine — 13:23.8 Frank Shorter — ~13:32.2 (reported PR for Shorter in some accounts) Outcome: Prefontaine again triumphed over Shorter.
I would like to believe that, but let’s face it we just don’t know. Pre looked like he was bulging on steroids and I could see Shorter being slippery enough to find some undetectable drug.
Lol, how skinny are you that you think Pre was "bulging on steroids"?
To be fair, Shorter was more than 3 years older than Pre. When Pre finished fourth at the 1972 Olympics, he was only 21.
Pre died at 24 years and 4 months of age. To fairly compare him to Shorter, we'd have to look only at what Shorter accomplished by the same age, which for Shorter was March of 1972.
No, I think the more common sense way to compare them in the context of the OP’s question is by comparing what they actually achieved.
And if not that, then first consider what Pre would most likely have achieved had he lived, and then compare that to Shorter’s resume.
It makes no sense contextually for us to be cutting Shorter off in March 1972…
Why wouldn't you compare their achievements at the same age? It makes no sense to look at what Shorter achieved after the age that Pre died if you're trying to make a fair comparison of their careers.
Do you expect Nico Young to already have two Olympic medals like Grant Fisher?
No, he would not be the legend he is today. It's called romanticizing the past. He would most likely have medalled at the '76 Games with the African boycott, but no medals in '80 due to the U.S. boycott, and '76 would be his only medal with the WCs not starting till '83 and LA in '84, making him too old to be competitive at the 5K.
No, I think the more common sense way to compare them in the context of the OP’s question is by comparing what they actually achieved.
And if not that, then first consider what Pre would most likely have achieved had he lived, and then compare that to Shorter’s resume.
It makes no sense contextually for us to be cutting Shorter off in March 1972…
Why wouldn't you compare their achievements at the same age? It makes no sense to look at what Shorter achieved after the age that Pre died if you're trying to make a fair comparison of their careers.
Do you expect Nico Young to already have two Olympic medals like Grant Fisher?
Because we have to go on results that actually happened and not woulda shoulda coulda hypotheticals. If Pre was good enough, he would have won gold in Munich and would have participated and won in the 10k along with the 5. Instead he finished outside the medals. Of course it’s fair to compare them after Pre died. Shorter went on to earn a sliver medal and won another 10k trials victory as well as winning four Fukuoka marathons, the Pan Am Games, and several other esteemed road races. We don’t know what Prefontaine would have accomplished because he tragically died, but that doesn’t mean we just ignore Shorter’s accomplishments. If Pre was good enough he would have won in Munich and set WRs on any number of opportunities afterwards. He didn’t and that career resume is what we have to go on. It doesn’t matter that Shorter’s career was much longer. That’s stupid.
If Pre won the 5000 gold in Montreal, then he would be a great hero of American distance running.
Yes, the answer to the OP's question depends on what Pre would have done at the 1976 Olympics. Consider that US track athletes did not fare well as a group that year (by our standards). No American women won gold, and the only American men who won individual gold in track events were Edwin Moses and Bruce Jenner. Pre winning gold in that context would have garnered a lot of attention.
No, he would not be the legend he is today. It's called romanticizing the past. He would most likely have medalled at the '76 Games with the African boycott, but no medals in '80 due to the U.S. boycott, and '76 would be his only medal with the WCs not starting till '83 and LA in '84, making him too old to be competitive at the 5K.
I mean I suppose he could’ve won the 10k in Montreal. I’d have to check all the competitors’ PRs, but something tells me he was the only 3:54 miler with a 27:43 10k PR. He probably could have dropped Viren and Company with 800 to go but we will never know. He only ran the 10k once and broke the AR. Lol.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses
This slogan is the surest proof Prefontaine was NOT great. If he were, you wouldn't be talking about 2000m and insinuating there are meaningful records in that range other than 5000m and 10,000m.
And you can't ignore the fact he never won against foreigners. Typically when one American beats all the others, and loses in world events, it's an "America sucks" era. He's the Bob Kennedy of his time.
Why wouldn't you compare their achievements at the same age? It makes no sense to look at what Shorter achieved after the age that Pre died if you're trying to make a fair comparison of their careers.
Do you expect Nico Young to already have two Olympic medals like Grant Fisher?
Because we have to go on results that actually happened and not woulda shoulda coulda hypotheticals. If Pre was good enough, he would have won gold in Munich and would have participated and won in the 10k along with the 5. Instead he finished outside the medals. Of course it’s fair to compare them after Pre died. Shorter went on to earn a sliver medal and won another 10k trials victory as well as winning four Fukuoka marathons, the Pan Am Games, and several other esteemed road races. We don’t know what Prefontaine would have accomplished because he tragically died, but that doesn’t mean we just ignore Shorter’s accomplishments. If Pre was good enough he would have won in Munich and set WRs on any number of opportunities afterwards. He didn’t and that career resume is what we have to go on. It doesn’t matter that Shorter’s career was much longer. That’s stupid.
I'm not comparing them based on hypotheticals. I'm suggesting we compare them based on what they actually did at the same age. That's the only fair way to compare them.
Pre finished fourth in the Olympics at age 21. That's better than what Shorter had done at the same age.
Do you expect Nico Young to already have two Olympic medals like Grant Fisher?
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No, he would not be the legend he is today. It's called romanticizing the past. He would most likely have medalled at the '76 Games with the African boycott, but no medals in '80 due to the U.S. boycott, and '76 would be his only medal with the WCs not starting till '83 and LA in '84, making him too old to be competitive at the 5K.
People who were not around in the late 60s / early 70s have no clue as to how big a star Pre was.
Shorter is definitely better than Pre. No question about that. An Olympic gold and silver, multiple Marathon Majors winner, and his PRs rivaled Pre’s at every distance.
Now having said that, Prefontaine was still great. American record holder at every distance from 2k to 10k and a high win record with seldom losses
This slogan is the surest proof Prefontaine was NOT great. If he were, you wouldn't be talking about 2000m and insinuating there are meaningful records in that range other than 5000m and 10,000m.
And you can't ignore the fact he never won against foreigners. Typically when one American beats all the others, and loses in world events, it's an "America sucks" era. He's the Bob Kennedy of his time.
I've said before that Pre's death reminds me of something that The Washington Post critic Tom Shales said about the death of Andy Kaufman: "It was a tragedy, but a good career move." Shorter was obviously vastly more accomplished as a runner, and his accomplishments, unlike Pre's, were largely against international competition.
To be fair, Shorter was more than 3 years older than Pre. When Pre finished fourth at the 1972 Olympics, he was only 21.
Pre died at 24 years and 4 months of age. To fairly compare him to Shorter, we'd have to look only at what Shorter accomplished by the same age, which for Shorter was March of 1972.
By March of '72 Shorter had two gold medals at the 1971 Pan Am Games. Prefontaine had one and Shorter had won the Fukuoka Marathon in '71 which at the time was kind of a defacto world championship. Shorter created quite a stir in the summer of '70 by winning the 10,000 in the US vs. USSR dual meet, something that only Gerry Lindgren had managed to do. With no disrespect to Prefontaine, I don't see anything he did that makes me think he had a better career than the March '72 version of Shorter did.
If Shorter had died in April of 1972 would he have become a legend? Would people have penciled him in for posthumous Olympic medals? Would there have been movies? I think his career would have merited those sorts of things as much or more than Prefontaine's did BUT it's not likely he would have had the Nike PR machine deifying him as it did Prefontaine so I don't know if he'd have become the same level of legend that Prefontaine has.
If Pre won the 5000 gold in Montreal, then he would be a great hero of American distance running.
Yes, the answer to the OP's question depends on what Pre would have done at the 1976 Olympics. Consider that US track athletes did not fare well as a group that year (by our standards). No American women won gold, and the only American men who won individual gold in track events were Edwin Moses and Bruce Jenner. Pre winning gold in that context would have garnered a lot of attention.
Would Prefontaine be the legend that he is now if he had lived and won the 10,000 in Montreal? It would have been big news and brought loads of acclaim. It would have been an accomplishment along the lines of Mills' and Dellingers' gold medals from Tokyo or Shorter's from Munich. All of these guys are very well respected and legendary. I don't know how any of their legends compare to Prefontaine's. None seem to get discussed here as much as Prefontaine does. Mills was the subject of one movie, Prefontaine of two but both were inspired by the tragedy of his premature death. Maybe there would have been no movies if he was still alive. I imagine his legacy would be along the lines of Dellinger, Mills, and Shorter.
On the other hand we're giving him a fantasy gold in Montreal and in reality it's far from certain he gets that. Let's give him a bronze medal in Montreal, maybe a win or two at Bislett over the next four years, and no more Olympics because of the '80 boycott and being well past his prime by LA. Are there movies? Do we see quotes from him? Is he in Nike ads?
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