Hermens also represents or represented the dirty Turks. The Ethio cheating Turk is one of his as well. This man has been dirty for years and the world knows it. I really hope there is enough here for it to stick. The sport may hurt from it but it needs it badly.
a great day for wejo wrote:
wejo, you must be peeing your pants with delight. You found an article about a doping scandal that BARELY mentions Hermens, you have no idea even what it says because it is in German, and yet you are blasting it over your site and hoping and praying it will cause many to cast suspicion at Bekele and Geb. Too funny. You don't have a single friend in the running or "journalism" world that speaks German?? You didn't want to confirm what that article was saying before blasting this "news" all over your site?
hey wejo, how about this:
all Africans are dirty, and most top Euros are too. You were one of the few clean athletes out there (along with a few other white American friends of yours). Your 28 minute and change 10k, in a clean world, would have actually landed you in the Olympic final, fighting for a medal.
Are you happy now?? I truly think that part of you believes the above, and that is why you are such a "drug crusader". I think it has nothing to with cleaning up the sport, and more to do with feeling better about your own times and how they stack up with the top runners in the world. your brother has been claiming all the top africans are juiced for years, with little proof. But keep trying guys, your bound to make something stick, and then you can use that to smear ALL the African athletes. Isn't that what you REALLY want? (and I do think that is true. Because if 100% accurate testing came along, lets' say a fool-proof lie detector, and this was applied to all runners of the last 20 years, and it revealed that a couple top Africans cheated, but 99% were cleaned, I don't think you'd be happy at all that the real cheaters were outed. No, I think you would very, very, disappointed, and would in fact contest the results, no matter what evidence was offered to the contrary. Are you really out for truth? Or are you just out to smear people you personally don't trust and prove theories you've had for years, whether the evidence is there or not? I think the latter. )
So speaketh the ultimate tool. Your attack on wejo is laughable, and anyone who knows him or has followed the site knows that your character accusations are way off base. But, whatever, 'good day'-you're going to keep on believing what you want to believe (even when the truth is right under your nose). In fact, I'll bet you were one of those geniuses who defended Regina and Eddy back before they got caught. Just keep on believing that guys are running 26:30 clean...
So what you just sit in the lobby and people are doing drugs right before your eyes? Please explain what you see by sitting in the lobby of hotels.
I know the talk amongst athletes a lot of times is about drugs but i don't know what I'm going to see in the lobby.
And I think guys can run 26:30 clean. I'd like to believe I could run 27:30 clean. Is there some guy born in a village at altitude, growing up in a rurual life style who can run 10 seconds a mile faster than me? Yes. Either that or perhaps maybe that other guy is right and I do believe I am the greatest clean runner ever.
Weldon,
John Kellogg and I have talked about Hermanns a few years ago. John was surprised at how Jos could quickly go from medium international level to posting WRs for the 1 hour track run twice (?).
wejo wrote:
So what you just sit in the lobby and people are doing drugs right before your eyes? Please explain what you see by sitting in the lobby of hotels.
I know the talk amongst athletes a lot of times is about drugs but i don't know what I'm going to see in the lobby.
And I think guys can run 26:30 clean. I'd like to believe I could run 27:30 clean. Is there some guy born in a village at altitude, growing up in a rurual life style who can run 10 seconds a mile faster than me? Yes.
Fair enough, weej.
a great day for wejo wrote:
....
But keep trying guys, your bound to make something stick, and then you can use that to smear ALL the African athletes. Isn't that what you REALLY want? (and I do think that is true. Because if 100% accurate testing came along, lets' say a fool-proof lie detector, and this was applied to all runners of the last 20 years, and it revealed that a couple top Africans cheated, but 99% were cleaned, I don't think you'd be happy at all that the real cheaters were outed. No, I think you would very, very, disappointed, and would in fact contest the results, no matter what evidence was offered to the contrary.
....
Actually even with the half-assed testing methods that we have now and five years ago their have been more than TWO top Africans caught.
Mourhit was caught for EPO and Boulami was too.
Mourhit was one of the best 3k-5k-10k combined runners of all-time, even now years later. He also won two WCC titles.
Brahim Boulami set two steeple WR's, the second one (7:53) was disallowed when he tested positive.
There are several others.
not in the lobby, in the bar, in the restaurant...amongst athletes from the same training group, from agents, from girlfriends. i'd imagine you were one of those americans who went straight back to their hotel room with other americans and played poker? why the yanks never associated with anyone else is beyond me. actually, scott was always out with walker. so, that's not 100% the rule.
wejo, we could argue all day about this, but I will say:
* I stand by my opinion concerning at least some of your motivation concerning your efforts to "rid the sport of drugs."
* By constantly going on witch hunts, I actually think you do damage to the sport. There ARE actually some clean athletes out there. But if every single time someone's name gets mentioned in an article, or gets associated with a known cheater you (or others) jump on the story and blow it up, no one will ever be thought to be clean again. And then......what is the point? I am 100% sure that someone somewhere could find some obscure link from JK or yourself to someone who once cheated ( I don't know, a former teammate, a friend, a business acquaintance or whatever), and then if they wanted they could try and concoct a case to make you look bad(like so many do to elites on this board). IF it happens, I am sure you won't like it. Remember that...
* Look at all the people on this thread that are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure that Geb and Bekele and all of Hermen's charges are dirty! I guess there is no need to find hard evidence, because in many people's minds these guys have already been all convicted long ago. That doesn't bother you a little?
* Rojo wrote a long time ago that all of current big improvements in WR's(which he tried to show were off the charts compared to past improvements) were concurrent with the rise of EPO use in endruance sport, and thus he clearly drew the connection between those two events. He was CLEARLY saying: these new WR's are dirty. Now who holds these WR's, or are near these WR's, that are so off the charts and clearly dirty performances??? Africans. Every single one of them. So what does THAT tell you??? He clearly thinks all the top Africans are dirty. I mean those were the dots he connected. Have him come on here and tell me I am wrong. If he is honest, he won't do it.
* LASTLY......your last comments are actually a lot more reasonable than any of others that I have seen on this thread from the other posters. I do at least think you have some sense of fairness. These other guys that you are firing up with your Hermens thread?? Nothing in the world would make them happier than for them to find out that every African is a cheater. It would be the best day in their life! Don't believe me?? Then ask them (so in conclusion, maybe I was a LITTLE hard on you, but these other posters......their lust for seeing the mighty Africans exposed as frauds is scary).
"Can you imagine what Suzy Favor Hamilton's confidence would have been like if she blew away Regina Jacobs every year at nationals instead of losing to her?"
Don't forget that Jos was Suzy's agent.
no--Wejo is doing a fine thing by pointing this all out. In fact, he is doing a GREAT service...well done Wejo. There is quite a bit of talk out there about Jos and his crew...there are a bunch of things that make one go hmmm....does this mean guilt? nope--not by any stretch, but makes you think quite a bit.
Why has Jos completely disappeared???
Why does Bekele train by himself???
The death of his fiancee is a tad odd--read the blog above on page one (quite long, but worth it)...good questions to ask for sure.
And there is more than just "talk" in this drug case...there are some serious evidence, and if linked to Hermens, one would have to ask which of his athltes are linked? (Collins was his, and she was busted)
Those in the know are talking quite a bit about this...I hope we get more facts than shoulda, coulda, possibly, maybe's....certainly there are some in this sport that are dirty. As dirty as cycling? doubtful. there is just not enough money to support the drug habit like cycling---but there are SOME, and a lot of this would be solved by more races testing (see the BS in Albany last weekend) but as said here many times before, seems like the athletes are always ahead of the testers anyways....
This was brought up in another thread, but why can't we develop procedures to store blood and urine for ten or twenty years after the fact. The Lance Armstrong EPO findings from 1999 bring this to light. We may not be able to get the prize purses back, but we can take away the legacies of the Armstrongs, the Jacobs, the Vanios, the Joyners, the Johnsons, etc.
It would create a great sense of paranoia if athletes knew that they would be held accountable (prize purses plus interest) for cheating years down the road. People would crack when put under pressure (see Jason Grimsley).
Just going back to the article's ref to the use of blood samples designated for 8 and 13 Aug at Euro Champs, dates of men's 10k and marathon (both genders)- but also a load of other events too. I'm naive here, but logic would suggest that if the samples are labelled to be used on this date at this event, one would expect an audit trail to show who the samples were for, no? At this stage many nations won't have formally selected their 10k entrants but pretty much all marathon entrants are confirmed (within thier own fed'n if not yet with EAA) following spring form etc.
Wilbur Post wrote:
hey, "a great day for wejo", how about this:
you are what we used to call a jock sniffer . . .
Nah, we sniffers just get sick of the steady drip, drip, drip of mindless insinuation and outright accusation every time someone does something amazing on the track. It's as predictable as the sunrise. Check out just about any thread on this message board and you'll find it: someone runs a great race > some anonymous yahoo manages to type the word "drugs" > another tiresome debate ensues between the sniffers and the yahoos.
If you've got something solid, let's hear it. Otherwise, put a sock in it -- you're boring.
For God's sake, man, get up to date with the news. The Armstrong-on-EPO-in-'99-story was completely bogus.
WOW, this could become the biggest doping bust in T&F ever but don't watch out for Gebre and Bekele, Bloodpacks were scheduled for the 10k final and the Marathon at Goteborg and considering that it is a spanish doctor look out for guys like Garcia(already caught once),Rey(already caught once),Rios,DelaOssa and others not showing up or performing very poorly(or gettin busted and suspended before).
The connection to Hermens is actually over a german high jumper, he adviced her to see that spanish doctor and she got some roids from him(and tested positive?).
But isn't it "funny" that Bekele got his ass kicked lately.
And Winokurov(from Saizs Liberty Team) as a Tour de France favourite is getting his ass kicked at the Dauphine Libere, trailing the best by some 13mins at a mountain stage?
hmm... wrote:
from medblogs web--interesting, eh??? not making any conclusions myself, just an interesting read.
not this shit again
WRONG - people, and WeJo, constantly complain about the state of the sport. Talking about drugs certainly is NOT helping. And it really does not help when a guy with a popular message board feels the need to put on the front page every tenuous drug thing that comes up. If the hardcore fans are in doubt, why should the casual fan start to care? And like I said, those connections, just like this Jos Hermens thing, are tenuous at best. WeJo could do this sport a huge favor by researching stuff before he feels the need to blow it up on the message board. It would probably also help a LOT if he actually spent longer than half a day with African athletes to get an idea for what drives them, he may be a little less cynical in the end.
And don't get me started on RoJo's mickey mouse graph that he posted back in the day supposedly correlating drug usage with WR's, anyone who has been in the sport longer than 5-10 yrs can come up with 3 much more plausible and correlated reasons for why performances are what they are in the last 15yrs.
Fox Mulder was a great guy, but just remember, most of the time he was wrong. Fellow letsruners - don't believe everything you hear here, even from the guys who run it.
wejo wrote:
We were faxed an article that discusses manager Jos Hermens (manager of Bekele and Gebrselassie) and the doping investigation in Spanish Cycling. We also found a link to another article. The problem for us is that both articles are in German and we don't speak German. So hopefully, someone can help us translate it. More details at this link:
http://www.letsrun.com/2006/hermensarticle.phpFeel free to post what yo find here.
Sounds very CNN. "Breaking news....This just in...."
Be careful everyone!