only game or not, record isn’t as strong as it has seemed.
Wait a second. Aren't California courses the weakest in all 50 states. Now complaints on how tough this California cross country course is.
The record is as strong as it seems. It's not the course it's the way the race was run today. 4:32 opening mile in 1985. 2025 it was 4:48. It's a championship race. Time doesn't matter. Only winning does.
California courses aren’t even close to weakest and I’m not from there. But places like Texas, Florida, Iowa etc have majority flat courses. Cali has some hills.
The 4:32 mile with 16 guys in it looking comfortable seems suspicious for such slow track 2 milers.
Wait a second. Aren't California courses the weakest in all 50 states. Now complaints on how tough this California cross country course is.
The record is as strong as it seems. It's not the course it's the way the race was run today. 4:32 opening mile in 1985. 2025 it was 4:48. It's a championship race. Time doesn't matter. Only winning does.
No one complained about “how tough” the course it. The debate in question is length then be length now.
It's funny how present day people believe only they are correct and everything before them was wrong. 50 years from now some doubter will question everything we do today.
As a Civil Historian says , we think we're smarter than them. We're not. Same applies here.
Reuben just ran to win races. Because he only ran 8:56, does not indicate his xc abilities on this course were less than. I imagine he, trainman and the twins from california could have ran super fast if they were all in the same race. These races did not exsist back then.
Was the course short the following year when Marc Davis ran 14:38 in victory phase for the last 150m?
in reality, comparing courses year to year is irrelevant. I imagine Reina and Jackson Spencer are not giving it much thought.
No one complained about “how tough” the course it. The debate in question is length then be length now.
It's funny how present day people believe only they are correct and everything before them was wrong. 50 years from now some doubter will question everything we do today.
As a Civil Historian says , we think we're smarter than them. We're not. Same applies here.
This isn’t about people thinking they’re correct. It’s about you having a lack of comprehension. The debate in question was about length of the Balboa course in San Diego.
You went off on tangent about California about California courses in general being reputably easier in difficulty. That added nothing to the conversation.
It's funny how present day people believe only they are correct and everything before them was wrong. 50 years from now some doubter will question everything we do today.
As a Civil Historian says , we think we're smarter than them. We're not. Same applies here.
This isn’t about people thinking they’re correct. It’s about you having a lack of comprehension. The debate in question was about length of the Balboa course in San Diego.
You went off on tangent about California about California courses in general being reputably easier in difficulty. That added nothing to the conversation.
I wasn't on a tangent. I was being sarcastic because of the constant bashing on these boards of how unchallenging California cross country courses are.
Read Spencer's statement on the race. Not once does he make an excuse about the course measurement. He also blames himself for what happened that first mile. I have more respect for him now.
Spencer Moves Up Late To Get In Position To Win, Fends Off Mantecon By Two-Tenths Of A SecondBy Doug Binder, DyeStat EditorKen Martinez PhotosSAN DIEGO - Jackson Spencer's goal all season was to represent the U.S. at the Worl...
The 4:32 mile with 16 guys in it looking comfortable seems suspicious for such slow track 2 milers.
1985 had a star-studded field. Many back then didn’t run impressive 3200m times in track simply because they never raced outside of their small geographic region, unlike today. Remember, 9th place in that race in 1985 Eric Mastalir also ran 14:01 for 5000m while still in high school in 1986, sans super shoes.
What many do not know about that 1985 race that Ruben ran IIRC, was he had been badly injured in the middle of the season and those four weeks leading up to Kinney Nationals he was only running about 25 miles a week because of said injury. Pretty astonishing performance, but also remember this was an extremely talented young man who became one of the most successful collegiate runners ever.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Reina ran 8:58 for 3200m his senior year. We have seen countless runners lightyears better than that constantly finish around 14:55-15:10 on Balboa.
Do I think Reina wins today by 34s? Absolutely not.
The course has changed materially.
As someone who knows the Balboa Park course better than almost anyone (and who is at the course right now), yes, the course has changed materially since Reuben Reina ran 14:36 back in 1985.
First of all, the condition of the course was much better back then. I doubt that the City of San Diego will ever put in the time, money, and effort to make the course in great shape again.
Also, the course was shorter back then in at least 3 places.
1. Going around the pool. The path was diagonal-ish on the sides of the pool, instead of right angles like now.
2. In the valley. In 1985 the course didn't go all the way to the sidewalk like it dies now. ( The course only started going out to the sidewalk in 1988.)
3. Top of the big hill. In 1985 the course didnt go through the 2 big trees at the top of the big downhill like it has for the past 20 years. It slanted in front of those 2 big trees.
Ironically, this year Brooks reinstated the 1980s way of running slanted in front of the big trees. But Brooks also added a big loop that went way above those 2 big trees and also above the round kids play area which added more distance than the slant saves. So today's course was longer that it had been for the past 20 years, with the exception of the 2024 course, which was accidentally made too long.
Conclusion - The course is now significantly longer than it was in 1985. And it's in worse shape.
Additional note - Regarding today's race, the course was wetter than usual which made the times about 10 seconds slower than they would have been otherwise.
Can the record be broken? - With the current course setup the chances of the boys course record being broken are not good.
On the other hand, the 16:39 girls course record from 1990 can probably be broken because the course in 1990 was longer than the course was in 1985. If the course had been dry today, Natasza Dudek and Blair Bartlett would have run around 16:45 and 16:47 which isn't too far off.
If they both stay healthy for the next 12 months, and the course is dry next year, we could see not just one but two girls go after the course record.
Was Goucher’s 14:41 on the same course they run today? Tully Runners has that as the second highest speed rating of all time.
I suspect that in the 1980s they (Kinney) were just happy to have a race and they didn't seem to be very picky about the exact course length.
Maybe someone can map out the 1985 course and other iterations as well and overlay them on the current course map? We'd all like to see these differences visually and with accurate maps, they can be measured.
I suspect that in the 1980s they (Kinney) were just happy to have a race and they didn't seem to be very picky about the exact course length.
Maybe someone can map out the 1985 course and other iterations as well and overlay them on the current course map? We'd all like to see these differences visually and with accurate maps, they can be measured.
Was Goucher’s 14:41 on the same course they run today? Tully Runners has that as the second highest speed rating of all time.
Goucher's 14:41 was on the 1993 version of the course which is shorter than the course is today, but longer than it was when Reuben Reina ran 14:36 in 1985.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Reina ran 8:58 for 3200m his senior year. We have seen countless runners lightyears better than that constantly finish around 14:55-15:10 on Balboa.
Do I think Reina wins today by 34s? Absolutely not.
I suspect that in the 1980s they (Kinney) were just happy to have a race and they didn't seem to be very picky about the exact course length.
I don't know how they'd measure it now but back then they probably walked it with one of those wheel with a long handle devices.
There's plenty of room for error but they were accurate if you walked in a straight line and measured the tangents.
The course in 1985 when Reuben Reina ran 14:36 was definitely not measured with a professional measuring wheel. It wasn't even in the ballpark of 5k.
Two different smart people who know how to measure a course and use a professional measuring wheel will get within a few meters per mile of each other. So maybe two different people would be 10 - 15 meters different for an entire 5k course.
The course now and the course back in 1985 are different by waaaaay more than 10 - 15 meters.
The original course in 1983 was really short. Then they made the course a little longer for 85 - 87. Then they made it longer again in 1988. Then they made it longer again in 2004. Then they made in longer again a 4 or 5 years after that because the area outside of one of the sides of the pool expanded so the course was forced to go around that.
Then the course stayed more or less the same up to and including 2023, except for 2019 when they cut part of the course for just one year, which is why two girls ran a really fast 16:45 and 16:46 in 2019.
In 2024 someone marking the course screwed up and expanded the course in the big hill area without permission from Foot Locker, which is why the times were slow last year. I know it was without permission from Foot Locker because I asked one of the top Foot Locker guys after the 2024 race why the course was longer and he told me that it wasn't supposed to be changed from the 2023 course and he didn't know why the guys marking the course in 2024 changed it without authorization.
I suspect, but can not yet prove, that Brooks actually measured the course themselves, and they didn't simply rely on what Foot Locker had done with the course. One of these days I'll get around to measuring the Brooks version of the course myself.
The 4:32 mile with 16 guys in it looking comfortable seems suspicious for such slow track 2 milers.
1985 had a star-studded field. Many back then didn’t run impressive 3200m times in track simply because they never raced outside of their small geographic region, unlike today. Remember, 9th place in that race in 1985 Eric Mastalir also ran 14:01 for 5000m while still in high school in 1986, sans super shoes.
What many do not know about that 1985 race that Ruben ran IIRC, was he had been badly injured in the middle of the season and those four weeks leading up to Kinney Nationals he was only running about 25 miles a week because of said injury. Pretty astonishing performance, but also remember this was an extremely talented young man who became one of the most successful collegiate runners ever.
Eric Mastalir also basically soloed an 8:44 3200 that year. Again, pre-super shoes and super spikes. Let's call it 8:35 with today's tracks and shoes. At least. Maybe closer to 8:30 with better competition too. No bicarb either.
Mark was arguably the better twin too. Both are easily sub-4:00 milers that year if transported to today with the competition, tracks, super spikes and bicarb.
Reina was later a 5000 US Olympian, so he's not some random slouch we never heard from again. And he was great in high school too.
Kinney was the only game in town. There was no NXN of course. It was truly a national championship and a huge deal. Everyone was focused on it.
There was no California state meet, so all the Californians like the Mastalirs were rested, not over-raced, and geared up for this race.
I'd call it the second greatest field ever assembled for a US HS cross country meet after probably the Ritz, Webb, Hall meet.
Having watched this video several times, I buy that the course was in much better shape than today and conditions may have been ideal that morning. Someone commented that there have been slight add on's over the years and that is possible. However, the lead pack blazed a 4:32 first mile; most Footlockers over the years had opening miles between 4:42 and 4:48, some years with an even slower second mile. Reina was cooking after the halfway point and then had the runner from IL up there pushing the pace. This particular race was more like a time trial whereas in the modern era it has played out more like a 'race to win' if that makes sense (I'd argue the modern era of running has gotten much more competitive). Plus over the last 20 or so years you'd have regionals, NXN, Footlockers and invites sprinkled throughout the season. Reina was an Olympian, as was Goucher and Solinsky. I wouldn't call this record illegitimate.
This record probably is safe. No NXN back then so no travelling to Portland, fly home, and a few days later travel again to run a roller coaster course. There's a reason Vegas sets point spreads for NFL games the way they do for teams travelling cross country. And they do not schedule such games in back to back week for good reason.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Reina ran 8:58 for 3200m his senior year. We have seen countless runners lightyears better than that constantly finish around 14:55-15:10 on Balboa.
Do I think Reina wins today by 34s? Absolutely not.
The course has changed materially.
Comparing pre Nike zoom Victory HS distance running to post superspike&supershoe era HS distance.
Do I need to elaborate why this is wrong?
The only reasonable comparison between different eras is placement and rankings. Cross country courses are different race to race even for the same course.
Track times can be compared, but again, different eras lead to unfair comparisons. Is a HSer running 3:58 today equivalent to Jim Ryun? Fk no, not even close. Ryun was world class. Webb's 3:53 was comparable. Today that might be 3:50. In Reina's era there were only a handful breaking 9:00 each year. Today 9:00 will get about 30th at Arcadia in the invite race and a 50th+ national ranking.
Ultimately. You have to look at rankings and places in big meets. A HSer who wins NXN or Brooks by 5sec, maybe setting a course record is equivalent to Reina's performance.
