El Guerrouj 400m and 800m speed

jeff tallon wrote:

im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.

So why didn't he?

I understand him not running an 8 against Kipketer, but he could easily have gotten into a paced 8 set up just for him.

This is the most plausible reason El G never raced the 800. Never raced the 1,000 either.

messi wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.

So why didn't he?

Even if he could, Why would he?

Lets throw Willis's 1:43.XX in there.

Let's throw in there (official times)...

Bernard Lagat 1:46.00

Silas Kiplagat: 1:46.75

You know that El Guerrouj and Lagat ran the last 800 in the 2004 Oly 1500 in 1:46. But you do not know that they can go any faster. Dr. Li says that he doesn't even know what Lagat's 400 time is and they don't train for it (nor did El Guerrouj). These days the 800 is much more about 400 speed, but the 1500 is more about aerobic power.

messi wrote:

jeff tallon wrote:

im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.

So why didn't he?

The training for the 400m is too different, and the 800m is just as similar to the 400m as it is the mile. Racing a 400m is the best way to train for a 400m, the anaerobic intensity is too high to train at all season or every day. Hichem would basically choosing to peak for not his main event, to be prepared enough to handle the event without injury risk, slashing mileage and upping intensity of track workouts.

He wasn't a very large built guy. So doping or no doping (I personally think many pro runners dope but innocent until proven) he is not going to run a 800m or 400m as well as the mile. Doping is irrelevant to the discussion as it's a simple question of physics. I mean, there are some light 800m specialists but 5 9 128? he's not going to slow as much from the 800m to mile, himself being a miler.

coach d wrote:

These days the 800 is much more about 400 speed, but the 1500 is more about aerobic power.

There is no such thing as "these days". Human physiology has not changed. You are free to run either race relying on 400 speed or aerobic power just as you've always been free to.

Agree with 400 of 48 but think he could have run 1:43 low for 800 in a paced race. Basically times his coach stated, and despite what Ventolin says, the athletes and coaches know more about their 400/800 ability than he does.

Cram has said he ran a 48.1 for 400 in training at the height of his peers in 85. I don't believe EL G was as fast as Cram over 400 or 800. And El G's coach clearly agrees.

The Moroccan was clearly an endurance based miler, as the vast majority were during his era of undoubted EPO use. It would have affected his 800 time marginally, meaning he was probably more of a 1:43 high athlete naturally, but it would have meant a 2-3 sec improvement in the 1500. I don't believe he was naturally any better than Cram over the mile, just had undetectable drugs which made the difference.

jjjjj wrote:I understand him not running an 8 against Kipketer, but he could easily have gotten into a paced 8 set up just for him

it's question of $$$

hicham was a money-making machine & it wouda been very very hard for him to get a promoter to pay him the same appearance fee to run a 800 as he got for a 1500 even if he told them he woud promise them a 1'42+

they woud just claim that they weren't interested in seeing a 1'42+ when Kip has gone 1'41-flat & wanted to see a 3'26+ or better for him & only pay serious appearance money for 1500/mile

messi wrote:

Pacifico wrote:Agreed. I suspect he couldn't have broken 48 or 1:44. People extrapolate his 400 & 800 ability based on what he did in 1500's and how he closed in them, without adding into the equation the fact he was almost certainly doped to the gills on EPO and whatever other combination. Had he run some competitive 800's the athletic fraternity would have been more aware of the fake he was. He didn't have the speed of some of the greats, but his endurance was just too good to be true or natural.

This is the most plausible reason El G never raced the 800

no

it is nonsense

Never raced the 1,000 either

i suggest you try & comprehend something told to you many times before :

the composite fastest 1k, including 1st 400 to eliminate flying start + last lap + inbetween fastest composite 200 is

~ 2'14-mid !

& that is effectively solo as the pacers were way too far ahead to offer effective drafting

in a proper 1k TT, he couda expected limpet-drafting for initial 600m at ~ 0.7s/lap = 1s+

therefore, the "effective" 1k he put in a 1500 race was

~ 2'13-mid !!!

what on earth do you think he couda run that day if in an actual smoothly- paced-to- bell 1k ???

TheRomny wrote:Lets throw Willis's 1:43.XX in there

eh ?

he has a 1'45.5pb from 11y ago !

no one has ever claimed nick has 1'43+ ability, but i'd certainly have expected 1'44+ from him in his 3'29.6pb

has he done something special in a training TT ?

did you comprehend this on 1st page :

?

undrafted for hicham means his "effective" last 800 was probably into the 1'43s considering he was pretty much accelerating all of that last 800

interesting

the coach of history's 2nd fastest 1500 guy didn't have much idea of his 400 speed !

no

nothing has changed from hicham's days

there is more depth in 1500 nowdays as event has got more competitive

the only aspect is that fractionally more 1500 guys nowdays are running 800 - souleman, maloofi & Asbel than hicham's days, but no one has claimed any great training shift

we just didn't see hicham/bernie or noah run 800s at their 1500/mile peak, albeit noah split 1'44.62 in his 1k WR with a staggering ~ 6m extra wide on bend on 1st 200 !!!, meaning more like ~ 1'43.8 for his route-1 800 in his 1k WR & 1st lap of actual 49.9 a route-1 of ~ 49.1+ !!!

all this with a 3'29.1 in his legs from ~ 44 hours before !!!

no one claimed anything about training specifically for the 800

we are talking running a 800 off just his 1500 training

running a 800 instead of the 1500 on day of 3'26.00

1'41-mid / 1'42-flat is not as good as 3'26.00

go check iaaf tables to see what they reckon 3'26.00 is worth for 800

claim is he couda run 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat if 800 instead of 1500 on day of 3'26.00

go check if iaaf tables state 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat is superior to 3'26.00 ?

i suggest you closely analyse this 800 run by souleiman, who trains primarily for 1500 & has to be considered a primary 1500 runner as he'd never run a serious 800 before '13 & already had a 3'30.3pb at the time :

- work out how much extra distance he runs wide on bends in that 1'42.97

consider that running wide in bend for whole bend adds ~ 2.5m & that just running inside part of lane 2 is ~ 3.5+

work out his extra distance run for last 3 bends

proportion that total figure to 800

- then knock of ~ 0.35s of that as that is ~ the time he threw away with no effective drafting on 1st lap as running 200 - 400 so wide

( based on expectation of drafting between 200 - 400 at 0.7s/lap )

what do you get for souleiman's "perfect" 800 time & you realise he has "only" a 3'29.58pb

( albeit, i'm sure if he'd run the 1500 instead of 800 in monaco, he wouda dipped into 3'27s - still helluva long way of hicham who ran 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish !!! )

?

eh ??

what physics ???

what is your point ???

do you have any idea how much yego the former 800wc & 1'42.67pb weighed ???

Diabalo wrote:

.... despite what Ventolin says, the athletes and coaches know more about their 400/800 ability than he does.

.

Based on what?

DUH guys. The men's 800 is called the UNDOPEABLE event for a reason.

laughable !!!

now you are disagreeing with one of your other handles !!!

nonsense

hicham's coach didn't seem to have much idea of his 400 speed & according to another poster here, james li had no idea of bernie's 400 !!!

no

it's claimed james li had no idea of bernie's 400 ability

i reckon 46-low

nonsense

whatever "peers" nonsense is ?!

all you claimed is that cram ran 48.1tt in summer-'85

his summer-'85 800s included crap such as 1'46.4 on 21st june losing to coe & even more crap 1'47.6 losing to mckean on 29th june

those are summer runs & 1'46+ is crap maybe somewhere not inconsistent with a rubbish 48.1tt

certainly not anywhere consistent with his awesome 1'42.8 peak with ~ 5m extra on bends & crushing cruz in a slow race to bell & tactical affair for cram

then there is no specification if that 48.1tt was fully rested for best part of a week as your best 400 shoud be

did he run that 48.1 fully rested ???

or last race of day after hard 10 mile run in morning & a brutal track-workout during the afternoon with multiple reps of fast 800s then finished with a 400tt ???

you offer nothing as usual

something concrete required

after years of pondering, comparison to likes of souleiman/maths/etc, imo :

cram was in best 400/800 shape for edinburgh-'86 :

~ 46-low/mid / 1'41-low

hicham in 3'26.00 shape :

~ 46-mid/high / 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat

no

claim of 48.1 in training

nothing about exact date of run such as losing 1'47.6 shape end-june or how rested he was for it

he equally couda run it :

last race of day after hard 10 mile run in morning & a brutal track-workout during the afternoon with multiple reps of fast 800s or 1ks then finished with a 400tt ???

nonsense

he did lotta mileage, but a composite solo 2'14-mid, worth more like 2'13-mid if paced to 600, in a 1500 !!!, shows he had plenty of speed

helluva lot of speed

does anyone in this universe seriously think it is possible to run 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish off 47+++/48-low ??? or 1'43+ ???

this nonsense is irrelevant

even if he was on epo, was he some kind of unique physiological abnormality that the epo woud give him superfast 1500 ability but crap 800 of your suggested 1'43+ ???

can epo give 3'26.00 with 53.2 finish but only crap 1'43+ ???

utter drivel

your argument is saying that NO 800 runner shoud ever take epo as it gives "marginal" benefit !!!???

where the hell is your proof that epo does not help 800 hugely ???

nonsense

natural or not

in his 3'26.00 with 53.2, he was likely

~ 1'41-mid / 1'42-high

nonsense

back to your

"epo doesn't offer anything but marginal benefit for 800"

try more like :

if epo offers 3s improvement for 1500, then, if it offered same proportional benefit for 800, it woud be

~ (8/15) * 3 = 1.6s benefit for 800

however, seeing as 800 is slightly more aerobic event than 1500 & slightly lesser epo effect, that 1.6s shoud be reduced slightly

a reasonable ballpark figure woud be

~ 1.2 / 1.3s

improvement for an an already elite 800 guy with epo

get a neurone & learn to think

nonsense

he was most tested middle-distance runner of the era & all the way into '04 when epo test was good

he was just a brutal trainer & trained with weights which beat the kenyans

kenyans still not training with weights & end result is still those stick-insect Asbel's et al

nonsense

he was running until '04-late which was 4y into better epo test & obviously most tested middle-distance runner of all-time upto then

what drugs apart from epo ???

Vent - how come Coe is the only athlete that you believe is slower than his actual PB? Every other athlete (Cram, ElG, Souleiman , Kiprop, Cruz, JR, just to name a few) according to you shoulda run quicker.

The issue I have with your maths is that you are basing it of made up theoretical 400m times, which are in many cases faster than what the athlete themselves believe they can run.

You've questioned Crams 48.1 TT, but never once have you questioned if it was with a standing or rolling start? This is key information in anyones books. That 48.1 could very well be a 48.8 if it were not with a standing start. Given how poor I would except Cram to be out of blocks, this would prob be closer to 49.1 in a bonafide race.

Coe was streaks ahead of Cram in terms of raw speed. I don't believe Coe was that much quicker than the 46.87 he ran (800m guys can split 1 sec quicker with a rolling start).

You think that if Nick Willis was in 1:43 shape that he wouldn't do everything he could to take down Snell's NR from 1964!

because in another thread, about legitimacy, his 1'41.73 shoud never have been ratified as no auto-time

where are the auto times for the field ???

go look at the document

& as olizarenkho's 1'54.85 with 1 HT of 1'54.5 shows HT can be way off !!!!

then we have rono's 13'06.20-auto with 3 HTs of 13'05.4

0,8s off !!!

eh ?

who is JR above ?

i examine case-to-case basis

some of those above had nonsense or poorly effected or no proper 800s at all

eh ???

i put lot of thought into those estimates

if you don't think it is important or worthwhile to estimate the 400 ability of the guy who ran 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish, then you are clearly hugely lacking in a coaching role

to any middle-distance coach, it is hugely important to have a very precise idea of his boyz 400 / 800 ability, as if/when/ever you get a huge talent, you have to have an idea of their current/possible ability...

this shows me you are deficient coach

( don't take it personally

i like you

but i have ivy-league colleagues/friends who are brain-surgeons & rocket-scientists

i can judge ability )

you coach a 1'44+ guy & only someone who is not sure of their ability as coach coud state that

james li, it is claimed had no idea of bernie's 400, & hicham's coach said 48+, whilst hicham, it's claimed stated an utter nonsense 49/50 !!!

it means 2 fastest 1500 guys ever did not really know their 400 ability & neither did their coaches

what is your problem ?

when exact date in summer ???

he was running losing 1'46+ & 1'47+ in summer before his great period

then i want to know if fully rested rested or last race in day after hard 10 mile in morning then brutal 4 x 800 &/or brutal 4 x 1500 reps in afternoon prior to that 48.1 ???

see above

no

see above

no

see above

nonsense

you woud have no idea of how quick cram was out of the blocks, seeing as you never saw his training in '85 or '86

King Carl never was quick out of any blocks but ran greatest/fastest 100 before mo

blocks argument is nonsense

nonsense

at cram's edinburgh-'86 800 peak, there wouda been only few tenths advantage over coe's-peak over 400

all of it clawed back & surpassed by cram's more emphasise on 800 towards edinburgh

i hope you really are the coach of a 1'44.4 guy

no

he was worth 45-high in early-'81

the problem is that some chump(s) can't realise that this likely drifted out to

46-flat / 46 +

by later in season

no 400 shape or 800 or 1500... stays constant over period of many weeks !!!

i suggest you go re-read the thread

i never said nick was ever in 1'43+ shape

someone posted nick-1'43+ & i decried it

go read whole thread again...

( btw :

can you kindly repost that earl jones training from while back ? )