Which training plan, philosophy, or approach are you betting your life on, and why is it the one that delivers when everything’s on the line? Let’s hear it: old-school mileage monsters, Canova disciples, Hanson loyalists, Ingebrigtsen-style threshold kings, who’s got the honest answer?
Whenever I ran a marathon it was with the idea of it being my fastest ever until it was clear that I was past that stage of my running. I don't see how knowing that one particular race would be my last shot at that would affect what I did. I'd just do what had worked for me in previous races which was to run a lot of miles at what Lydiard would have called my best aerobic speed and do a few sharpening races.
HRE: I have always found you respectful and draw encouragement from your posts. It is doubtful if I would still be here if you had disappeared. You are likely quite old like myself, heck I never really knew much at all about Lydiard in high school! What new plans have impressed you most since old Arthur passed? What is the greatest improvement in the sport? What would you improve?
Kenny Moore/Benji Durden style. Easy days very easy and low volume, big volume on hard days. Trained like this for my last 2 marathons and improved my PB by 2 minutes (2h21). Total training volume was about the same as before, but I didn't feel as fatigued + easier to fit in with a standard 40 hour work week. Hardly anyone trains like this anymore, but it works.
E.G.
M: 30'-45' easy T: 30'-45' easy W: AM: 45'-60' easy/steady PM: Marathon-pace or Threshold Intervals (90'-1h45') T: 30'-45' easy F: AM: 45'-60' easy/steady PM: 90' Steady on hilly course S: 30'-45' easy S: AM: 30-45km Long steady run with maybe last 3-5km at marathon pace (PM: optional 30'-45' easy)
Total: 10h-11h
easy = 7:30-8:00 per mile steady = 6:15-6:45 per mile
This looks good because it seems simple enough to figure out for most runners, and there are not many programs advertised as good for fitting into a 40 hour week!
My better marathons have come off different training approaches, Pfitz, DIY Canova inspired and the Easy Interval Method. What they had in common was staying healthy and not missing any training time.
I'm an older hobby jogger now, and would go with the easy intervals, eating well and keeping on top of stretching these days. Only going to get fastest ever if you count age grades though. I would tell younger me to read Canova earlier.
Pete Pfitzinger has written several books about training, but he deals directly with the marathon in "Advanced Marathoning." If you’re looking at a shorter race, check out "Faster Road Racing." He deals with a lot of the same underlying concepts in both books, but the training plans are tailored specifically to each type of race. In the book, Pete lays out some of the exercise science behind running training. He goes into detail about lactate threshold, VO2 max, and running economy – and their role in determining running performance.
For myself, just getting back up to 100 miles a week with a 20-22 long run and staying healthy, then going to grandmas or cim would probably do it. I never could stay healthy when I did marathon specific training. I think I'd have run a faster marathon if I ran one like a week after my last college track meet or if I just kept doing 10k focused training.
Ron Daws was a pioneering figure in American distance running, especially known for his thoughtful and self-experimental approach to marathon training during the 1960s and 1970s. He wasn’t just a runner—he was a philosopher of the sport. 🧠 What He Was Known For in Marathon Planning Self-Experimentation: Daws was deeply analytical, often testing training theories on himself before recommending them to others. His book The Self-Made Olympian is a testament to this DIY ethos. Lydiard Influence: He adapted Arthur Lydiard’s principles—emphasizing aerobic base building, hill training, and periodization—but tailored them to American runners and conditions. Mental Toughness: Daws believed the marathon was as much a psychological battle as a physical one. His writing often explored the emotional and existential dimensions of long-distance running. 🏃♂️ Who He Trained and Where Steve Hoag: Daws coached Hoag to a stunning 2nd place finish at the 1975 Boston Marathon in 2:11:54—a nearly 5-minute personal best. Minnesota Runners: He was a central figure in the Twin Cities running scene. From the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s, nearly every serious runner in Minnesota crossed paths with him. Colorado Running Camps: Post-Olympics, he led training camps in the mountains near Colorado Springs, blending altitude training with lectures on physiology and psychology. 🌟 What Made Him Unique Philosopher-Athlete: Daws wasn’t just a coach or competitor—he was a thinker. His writing is filled with introspection, quotes from Roosevelt, and reflections on personal growth through suffering. Multidisciplinary Life: He studied psychology, painted watercolors, and worked as a research analyst. His holistic view of life infused his coaching with depth. Grassroots Hero: Unlike many Olympians, Daws built his career from modest beginnings. He started as a slow high school runner and became a U.S. Olympian through sheer grit and curiosity. 🕰️ When He Ran and His Legacy Peak Years: Daws competed in the 1968 Olympic Marathon in Mexico City, finishing 22nd. He also placed 4th at the 1969 Boston Marathon with a personal best of 2:20:233. Coaching Era: He coached actively through the 1970s and early 1980s, influencing a generation of runners. Passing: Ron Daws died of a heart attack in 1992 at age 55. He is no longer coaching, but his legacy lives on through his books and the annual Ron Daws 25K race in Minneapolis3. If you’re curious, I can share a few of his most iconic training principles or quotes from Running Your Best. His words still resonate with runners chasing meaning as much as miles.
Ron Daws was a pioneering figure in American distance running, especially known for his thoughtful and self-experimental approach to marathon training during the 1960s and 1970s. He wasn’t just a runner—he was a philosopher of the sport. 🧠 What He Was Known For in Marathon Planning Self-Experimentation: Daws was deeply analytical, often testing training theories on himself before recommending them to others. His book The Self-Made Olympian is a testament to this DIY ethos. Lydiard Influence: He adapted Arthur Lydiard’s principles—emphasizing aerobic base building, hill training, and periodization—but tailored them to American runners and conditions. Mental Toughness: Daws believed the marathon was as much a psychological battle as a physical one. His writing often explored the emotional and existential dimensions of long-distance running. 🏃♂️ Who He Trained and Where Steve Hoag: Daws coached Hoag to a stunning 2nd place finish at the 1975 Boston Marathon in 2:11:54—a nearly 5-minute personal best. Minnesota Runners: He was a central figure in the Twin Cities running scene. From the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s, nearly every serious runner in Minnesota crossed paths with him. Colorado Running Camps: Post-Olympics, he led training camps in the mountains near Colorado Springs, blending altitude training with lectures on physiology and psychology. 🌟 What Made Him Unique Philosopher-Athlete: Daws wasn’t just a coach or competitor—he was a thinker. His writing is filled with introspection, quotes from Roosevelt, and reflections on personal growth through suffering. Multidisciplinary Life: He studied psychology, painted watercolors, and worked as a research analyst. His holistic view of life infused his coaching with depth. Grassroots Hero: Unlike many Olympians, Daws built his career from modest beginnings. He started as a slow high school runner and became a U.S. Olympian through sheer grit and curiosity. 🕰️ When He Ran and His Legacy Peak Years: Daws competed in the 1968 Olympic Marathon in Mexico City, finishing 22nd. He also placed 4th at the 1969 Boston Marathon with a personal best of 2:20:233. Coaching Era: He coached actively through the 1970s and early 1980s, influencing a generation of runners. Passing: Ron Daws died of a heart attack in 1992 at age 55. He is no longer coaching, but his legacy lives on through his books and the annual Ron Daws 25K race in Minneapolis3. If you’re curious, I can share a few of his most iconic training principles or quotes from Running Your Best. His words still resonate with runners chasing meaning as much as miles.
WHAT TOO MANY OFTEN NEGLECT IN THEIR LEARNING IS HOW MUCH PIONEERS SUCH AS DAWS CONTRIBUTED TO OUR LIVES AS RUNNERS. YES, HE DIED OF A HEART ATTACK, HIS PLANS AND PHILOSOPHIES MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BEST. HOWEVER IT IS BECAUSE HE LIVED THAT WE HAD A CHANCE TO CHANGE AND WE ARE SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR IT!
Let’s break down one of Ron Daws’ weekly marathon training schedules and explore how modern coaches still use his principles today. His approach was rigorous but deeply thoughtful—designed for runners who wanted to push their limits with purpose. 📅 Sample Weekly Training Schedule from Running Your Best This is a simplified version of Daws’ advanced marathon plan, typically used in the peak phase of training: DayWorkoutMonday 10 miles easy recovery Tuesday 12 miles with 6 miles at marathon pace Wednesday 15 miles steady aerobic Thursday 10 miles with hill repeats (6–8 x 400m uphill) Friday 8 miles easy Saturday 18–22 miles long run (progressive pace) Sunday 6 miles recovery or rest 🧠 Key Concepts: Volume: Weekly mileage often exceeded 100 miles for elite runners. Specificity: Tuesday’s marathon pace run and Saturday’s long run simulate race conditions. Recovery: Easy days were truly easy—Daws emphasized not letting ego override recovery. 🏃♂️ How Modern Coaches Still Use Daws’ Principles Even decades later, Daws’ ideas are alive and well: Hard-Easy Rhythm: Coaches like Pete Pfitzinger and Jack Daniels still use alternating stress-recovery days, echoing Daws’ structure. Mental Framing: Daws’ concept of being “mentally up” for hard sessions is now part of sports psychology—used to prep athletes for peak performance. Adapted Lydiard Models: His blend of Lydiard’s base-building with American pragmatism is seen in many collegiate and club programs. Downhill Training: Daws was one of the first to emphasize downhill running for quad strength—a technique now common in Boston Marathon prep. Ron Daws didn’t just write training plans—he wrote life plans disguised as workouts. His schedules were blueprints for transformation, not just performance.
Ron Daws was a pioneering figure in American distance running, especially known for his thoughtful and self-experimental approach to marathon training during the 1960s and 1970s. He wasn’t just a runner—he was a philosopher of the sport. 🧠 What He Was Known For in Marathon Planning Self-Experimentation: Daws was deeply analytical, often testing training theories on himself before recommending them to others. His book The Self-Made Olympian is a testament to this DIY ethos. Lydiard Influence: He adapted Arthur Lydiard’s principles—emphasizing aerobic base building, hill training, and periodization—but tailored them to American runners and conditions. Mental Toughness: Daws believed the marathon was as much a psychological battle as a physical one. His writing often explored the emotional and existential dimensions of long-distance running. 🏃♂️ Who He Trained and Where Steve Hoag: Daws coached Hoag to a stunning 2nd place finish at the 1975 Boston Marathon in 2:11:54—a nearly 5-minute personal best. Minnesota Runners: He was a central figure in the Twin Cities running scene. From the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s, nearly every serious runner in Minnesota crossed paths with him. Colorado Running Camps: Post-Olympics, he led training camps in the mountains near Colorado Springs, blending altitude training with lectures on physiology and psychology. 🌟 What Made Him Unique Philosopher-Athlete: Daws wasn’t just a coach or competitor—he was a thinker. His writing is filled with introspection, quotes from Roosevelt, and reflections on personal growth through suffering. Multidisciplinary Life: He studied psychology, painted watercolors, and worked as a research analyst. His holistic view of life infused his coaching with depth. Grassroots Hero: Unlike many Olympians, Daws built his career from modest beginnings. He started as a slow high school runner and became a U.S. Olympian through sheer grit and curiosity. 🕰️ When He Ran and His Legacy Peak Years: Daws competed in the 1968 Olympic Marathon in Mexico City, finishing 22nd. He also placed 4th at the 1969 Boston Marathon with a personal best of 2:20:233. Coaching Era: He coached actively through the 1970s and early 1980s, influencing a generation of runners. Passing: Ron Daws died of a heart attack in 1992 at age 55. He is no longer coaching, but his legacy lives on through his books and the annual Ron Daws 25K race in Minneapolis3. If you’re curious, I can share a few of his most iconic training principles or quotes from Running Your Best. His words still resonate with runners chasing meaning as much as miles.
WHAT TOO MANY OFTEN NEGLECT IN THEIR LEARNING IS HOW MUCH PIONEERS SUCH AS DAWS CONTRIBUTED TO OUR LIVES AS RUNNERS. YES, HE DIED OF A HEART ATTACK, HIS PLANS AND PHILOSOPHIES MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BEST. HOWEVER IT IS BECAUSE HE LIVED THAT WE HAD A CHANCE TO CHANGE AND WE ARE SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR IT!
Let’s break down one of Ron Daws’ weekly marathon training schedules and explore how modern coaches still use his principles today. His approach was rigorous but deeply thoughtful—designed for runners who wanted to push their limits with purpose. 📅 Sample Weekly Training Schedule from Running Your Best This is a simplified version of Daws’ advanced marathon plan, typically used in the peak phase of training: DayWorkoutMonday 10 miles easy recovery Tuesday 12 miles with 6 miles at marathon pace Wednesday 15 miles steady aerobic Thursday 10 miles with hill repeats (6–8 x 400m uphill) Friday 8 miles easy Saturday 18–22 miles long run (progressive pace) Sunday 6 miles recovery or rest 🧠 Key Concepts: Volume: Weekly mileage often exceeded 100 miles for elite runners. Specificity: Tuesday’s marathon pace run and Saturday’s long run simulate race conditions. Recovery: Easy days were truly easy—Daws emphasized not letting ego override recovery. 🏃♂️ How Modern Coaches Still Use Daws’ Principles Even decades later, Daws’ ideas are alive and well: Hard-Easy Rhythm: Coaches like Pete Pfitzinger and Jack Daniels still use alternating stress-recovery days, echoing Daws’ structure. Mental Framing: Daws’ concept of being “mentally up” for hard sessions is now part of sports psychology—used to prep athletes for peak performance. Adapted Lydiard Models: His blend of Lydiard’s base-building with American pragmatism is seen in many collegiate and club programs. Downhill Training: Daws was one of the first to emphasize downhill running for quad strength—a technique now common in Boston Marathon prep. Ron Daws didn’t just write training plans—he wrote life plans disguised as workouts. His schedules were blueprints for transformation, not just performance.
Daws would advocate an easy 4-8 mile run most days in addition to the above schedule. Though his fastest protege, Steve Hogg (sp?) ran singles because he just couldn't stay healthy on doubles.
If I really wanted to go all in on a single race, meaning I don't care about the next training cycle and any longer term development as a runner, I'd run less. Not substantially less, but if I'd typically put in 80-100mpw, I'd target 60-80mpw and focus on 2 key workouts each week. We can bicker about what those workouts should look like. But backing off the total volume would be a priority.
For myself, just getting back up to 100 miles a week with a 20-22 long run and staying healthy, then going to grandmas or cim would probably do it. I never could stay healthy when I did marathon specific training. I think I'd have run a faster marathon if I ran one like a week after my last college track meet or if I just kept doing 10k focused training.
In many ways the longer the distance, the more simple the plan, at least as far as the science. However, I bet life gets more complex because you spend alot more time training for the longer distances. You also get to spend alot more time having pain and spending money in marathon running. The reason why I am doing this synopsis on the marathon is because I am training someone. I am sure I am missing all kinds of stuff! I tend to think that distance runners are the smartest of athletes because we get so much time to think, but all I need to do is go to LRC and someone will prove me wrong about that. Kvothe, you are proving to me that you are smart. Thank you.
WHAT TOO MANY OFTEN NEGLECT IN THEIR LEARNING IS HOW MUCH PIONEERS SUCH AS DAWS CONTRIBUTED TO OUR LIVES AS RUNNERS. YES, HE DIED OF A HEART ATTACK, HIS PLANS AND PHILOSOPHIES MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN BEST. HOWEVER IT IS BECAUSE HE LIVED THAT WE HAD A CHANCE TO CHANGE AND WE ARE SO MUCH THE BETTER FOR IT!
Let’s break down one of Ron Daws’ weekly marathon training schedules and explore how modern coaches still use his principles today. His approach was rigorous but deeply thoughtful—designed for runners who wanted to push their limits with purpose. 📅 Sample Weekly Training Schedule from Running Your Best This is a simplified version of Daws’ advanced marathon plan, typically used in the peak phase of training: DayWorkoutMonday 10 miles easy recovery Tuesday 12 miles with 6 miles at marathon pace Wednesday 15 miles steady aerobic Thursday 10 miles with hill repeats (6–8 x 400m uphill) Friday 8 miles easy Saturday 18–22 miles long run (progressive pace) Sunday 6 miles recovery or rest 🧠 Key Concepts: Volume: Weekly mileage often exceeded 100 miles for elite runners. Specificity: Tuesday’s marathon pace run and Saturday’s long run simulate race conditions. Recovery: Easy days were truly easy—Daws emphasized not letting ego override recovery. 🏃♂️ How Modern Coaches Still Use Daws’ Principles Even decades later, Daws’ ideas are alive and well: Hard-Easy Rhythm: Coaches like Pete Pfitzinger and Jack Daniels still use alternating stress-recovery days, echoing Daws’ structure. Mental Framing: Daws’ concept of being “mentally up” for hard sessions is now part of sports psychology—used to prep athletes for peak performance. Adapted Lydiard Models: His blend of Lydiard’s base-building with American pragmatism is seen in many collegiate and club programs. Downhill Training: Daws was one of the first to emphasize downhill running for quad strength—a technique now common in Boston Marathon prep. Ron Daws didn’t just write training plans—he wrote life plans disguised as workouts. His schedules were blueprints for transformation, not just performance.
Daws would advocate an easy 4-8 mile run most days in addition to the above schedule. Though his fastest protege, Steve Hogg (sp?) ran singles because he just couldn't stay healthy on doubles.
I read somewhere that if Hoag felt a run was going to be negative, he skipped that day!
If I really wanted to go all in on a single race, meaning I don't care about the next training cycle and any longer term development as a runner, I'd run less. Not substantially less, but if I'd typically put in 80-100mpw, I'd target 60-80mpw and focus on 2 key workouts each week. We can bicker about what those workouts should look like. But backing off the total volume would be a priority.
Good answer to 'if it was your last race.'
Here are some other questions for you: isn't it equally true that you can get hurt by running too many miles or putting in too much intensity? Don't as many runners (if they looked back at their training) also come to realize that the race often caused the injury, not the training?
The benchmark I've always used (as to a great many marathon runners) to gauge my running prowess is the Boston Marathon.
My fastest marathon ever has always been my Boston Marathon Qualifier, and I've qualified for the last 10 of them - at more than 20 min. faster than required. I NEVER TRAIN AT MORE THAN 45 MPW - NEVER. The trick is to train smart over training hard - even though SMART does have some periods of HARD in it. The key here is to have a training cycle that has a good BASE, BUILD, PEAK and TAPER cycles program.
My training cycle starts 24 wks before my qualifier, take off 3 wks after the qualifier, and then repeat the last 10 wks of that 24 wk cycle culminating at Boston. I'm training first week in August thru mid April and treadmill and swim mid April to end of July.
I have found that TrainingPeaks has mastered the marathon training programs and has something to offer everyone - meeting their current running level, hrs/wk available to train, duration of training cycle and desired outcome. TrainingPeaks pairs very will with the higher-end Garmin watches - collecting and voicing on-the-run data.
TBH the Norwegian singles "plan" is what I'd do to get to a decent level of fitness and then do 1 marathon specific workout each week the last 8-12 weeks I have left. Basically train for a good 10k and maximize marathon ability as the cherry on top.
I dont think 8 weeks would be enough to build up to and get adapted to a good enough volume of marathon paced runnig. 12 weeks is probably enough if taper isnt included.
The benchmark I've always used (as to a great many marathon runners) to gauge my running prowess is the Boston Marathon.
My fastest marathon ever has always been my Boston Marathon Qualifier, and I've qualified for the last 10 of them - at more than 20 min. faster than required. I NEVER TRAIN AT MORE THAN 45 MPW - NEVER. The trick is to train smart over training hard - even though SMART does have some periods of HARD in it. The key here is to have a training cycle that has a good BASE, BUILD, PEAK and TAPER cycles program.
My training cycle starts 24 wks before my qualifier, take off 3 wks after the qualifier, and then repeat the last 10 wks of that 24 wk cycle culminating at Boston. I'm training first week in August thru mid April and treadmill and swim mid April to end of July.
I have found that TrainingPeaks has mastered the marathon training programs and has something to offer everyone - meeting their current running level, hrs/wk available to train, duration of training cycle and desired outcome. TrainingPeaks pairs very will with the higher-end Garmin watches - collecting and voicing on-the-run data.
The person I am training might be working and also she enjoys tech. TrainingPeaks might interest her. You say you never train more than 45 MPW. I take that to mean the amount of running that you do. Certainly that is possible since runners often are forced to adopt some of this stuff anyway and the girl I am training might have a hard time finding people to train with and optimal weather!
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TBH the Norwegian singles "plan" is what I'd do to get to a decent level of fitness and then do 1 marathon specific workout each week the last 8-12 weeks I have left. Basically train for a good 10k and maximize marathon ability as the cherry on top.
I dont think 8 weeks would be enough to build up to and get adapted to a good enough volume of marathon paced runnig. 12 weeks is probably enough if taper isnt included.
I am glad you brought that up. Many only regard certain weeks to tell people how they train. It is as if the 8 years they spent running in high school and college have nothing to do whatsoever with what they do now!
Which training plan, philosophy, or approach are you betting your life on, and why is it the one that delivers when everything’s on the line? Let’s hear it: old-school mileage monsters, Canova disciples, Hanson loyalists, Ingebrigtsen-style threshold kings, who’s got the honest answer?
After reading Des Linden's book I do not have a high opinion of Hansons Distance Group as their main philosophy seems to be based on running with tired legs! She got so sick with a mysterious illness that she almost died. But she did win Boston, AFTER she left the group.
Whenever I ran a marathon it was with the idea of it being my fastest ever until it was clear that I was past that stage of my running. I don't see how knowing that one particular race would be my last shot at that would affect what I did. I'd just do what had worked for me in previous races which was to run a lot of miles at what Lydiard would have called my best aerobic speed and do a few sharpening races.
HRE: I have always found you respectful and draw encouragement from your posts. It is doubtful if I would still be here if you had disappeared. You are likely quite old like myself, heck I never really knew much at all about Lydiard in high school! What new plans have impressed you most since old Arthur passed? What is the greatest improvement in the sport? What would you improve?
So I have to stick around to keep you from leaving? That's a lot of pressure. How many people do you think read that and thought "What a great toofer that would be." Thanks!
Yes, I'll show my age here. Nothing really looks new to me. Everything looks like slight tweaks on stuff we were doing 50 plus years ago explained with more sophisticated terminology.
Would I recommend any of them? Sure, do the one that appeals to you most, the one that will have you doing as much running as you can manage. I have come to believe that for almost everyone what matters is if you're running enough. The rest is details.