The shoes matter. Anyone who has not raced (and trained) in supershoes should not even be allowed to comment on "this era." The shoes are so real...
The real difference is the shoes.
have you actually raced in the super spikes though?
I have. It's hard to compare since I ran my top times around 2010-15 compared to now as a 40 year old just trying to break 5 in the mile. I don't notice a difference in speed, only recovery, which is a big advantage for the elites getting in those high quality sessions. So just slipping a pair of Dragonflies or the new Victories isn't going to instantly take a 3:55 miler to 3:50 (maybe 3:54.5) but the long term training effect will be positive.
I'm curious what the new spikes would have done for guys like Geb and Bekele, obviously both amazing, but struggled with calf and achilles issues during their careers. I'm positive they would still hold the 5k and 10k records if they had the new spikes.
I did. I have both the dragonfly and Vaporfly (Alphafly are crap though so skip them). They aren't nearly as potent as their road shoes counterpart. 1500m is also such a short race for it to have much benefit. 1 sec at best for those at the top, and I'm being generous.
I'd argue the wavelight has more impact, that's why I don't really think Jakob's 3;26 has much value, compared to Hocker's 3:27 in the Olympic final (with a 53 secs last lap!) and deem him an inferior 1500m runner to Hocker and Kerr.
Err singling out wavelight doesn't paint the full picture. Hocker got "paced" to 1450m and only ran 3:27. Jakob was paced to 1100m, runs 3:26.
Not saying Hockers race wasn't great, but to say Jakob's "doesn't have much value" is pretty silly.
Sledgehammer is always spinning it so he can denigrate the Norwegian. That seems to be his main motivation on these pages.
Notwithstanding his olympic gold, the praise he gets on this board is over the top.
Neither did Webb, who is often held up as a paragon of time trialing ability. People are faster now for whatever reason, but running 330 back in 2015 was legit.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
Centro's career was during an era with Kiprop (3:26), makhloufi (3:28/1:42), Kiplagat (3:27), and Iguider (3:28). All pre-supershoes. This is arguably more impressive than the top guys now.
I think a lot of runners have a faster PR than Centro. What made Centro great was his incredible tactics and nerves of steel to execute at the right time.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
Centro's career was during an era with Kiprop (3:26), makhloufi (3:28/1:42), Kiplagat (3:27), and Iguider (3:28). All pre-supershoes. This is arguably more impressive than the top guys now.
Multiple people you listed got caught doping. Shoe technology has truly broken brains
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
In the 2016 Rio Olympic final he beat Makhloufi (3:28, 1:42), Kiprop (3:26, 1:43), Souleiman (3:29, 1:42/1:43), Iguider (3:28), and Willis (3:29), all of whom ran their PRs before wave lights and super shoes. That’s as impressive a field to beat as pretty much any in Olympic history honestly and indicates that Centro definitely could’ve run faster than his PR given the right set of circumstances.
Hoey has a long way to go to catch Centro medal-wise. He has a World Indoor gold, but so does Centro -- plus an Olympic gold and two World Championship medals.
Hard to compare guys across eras, especially with the uptick in fast times due to super shoes/pace lights/fast tracks/double threshold/bicarb/etc., & a lot of people are treating it like an all or nothing conversation. If you think Hoey is better than Centro because of the PB that's on you. I'm not going to argue if the 2016 1500 guys were better than this current batch but winning an Olympic gold & running 3:30 pre super shoes is worth something. Centro was never the best global 1500 runner but he got the better of everyone on the day that mattered most & dominated the US through most of his career. Surely he could've trimmed off some time from his PB in today's climate. Look at some of the lesser known runners that just ran 3:29 in Paris. I will argue that Centro is better than those guys. He runs that time in that race with his best fitness.
Let's just enjoy what we have now & not use it to try to knock guys who had good careers. Centro earned a lot of respect from me by talking about Chinese doped up records on one of the diamond league youtube streams. Hoey has made a lot of progress after not making improvements for several years. Let's just take everything with a grain of salt, celebrate good results, and condemn dirty ones when we get presented with evidence.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
Couldn't agree more. Centro's "gold" was the single biggest fluke in the history of the sport. That race gets run 100 times, he finished outside the top 8 on 99 of those occasions.
He will be remembered as a one hit wonder that struck lightning at the right moment.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
tbh, I love Centro, dude is a class act, but his gold is definitely the flukiest one in history in a weak era. His biggest opponent is Maddaddy, but Maddaddy would have a hard time even making the final in this era. Just look at how he got destroyed by a front-running Tim in Doha. And Tim came in second to last in Paris last year, that goes to show how deep the completion has gotten.
Centro might have run 3:29 in superspikes, but that's pretty pedestrian at the top level now when there're six people running 3:27 or faster in a span of 11 months (not even a year).
No. It was a masterclass in tactical running. He controlled the race from start to finish in one of the best tactical runs in history.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
tbh, I love Centro, dude is a class act, but his gold is definitely the flukiest one in history in a weak era. His biggest opponent is Maddaddy, but Maddaddy would have a hard time even making the final in this era. Just look at how he got destroyed by a front-running Tim in Doha. And Tim came in second to last in Paris last year, that goes to show how deep the completion has gotten.
Centro might have run 3:29 in superspikes, but that's pretty pedestrian at the top level now when there're six people running 3:27 or faster in a span of 11 months (not even a year).
I don't know about the whole 'fluke' thing for Centro. Every athlete in the 2016 final evidently believed that they were better off in a kicker's race. Centro ran a masterclass of controlling the field, holding the rail and then had the kick to win it.
Also, everyone knows the superspikes (and related tech) is worth 2 or 3 seconds at least. Just ask JG. So that means Jakob's 3:26-high = 3:29-high pre supershoes. Meanwhile, Centro's 3:30 = 3:27 in the super shoe era. Those two are closer than you think.
I don't know about the whole 'fluke' thing for Centro. Every athlete in the 2016 final evidently believed that they were better off in a kicker's race. Centro ran a masterclass of controlling the field, holding the rail and then had the kick to win it.
Also, everyone knows the superspikes (and related tech) is worth 2 or 3 seconds at least. Just ask JG. So that means Jakob's 3:26-high = 3:29-high pre supershoes. Meanwhile, Centro's 3:30 = 3:27 in the super shoe era. Those two are closer than you think.
Let that sink in.
That’s a little overstated. Jakob is better than Nick Willis on the wrong side of 30. The spikes are probably worth a second. Wavelight has helped a lot and pacers go further and more effectively (no more 54s openers and lasting only 800 mostly). The fact is Centro often bombed in his chances to run fast. Monaco 2013, he blew it. His PB comes from 2015 which was not really his best year and his race at Pre was better. His best year, 2016, Salazar had him run no fast races. So the limited fast races he had it was not his top skillset and he often underperformed. I think in this era he’d have more times to run fast and probably with spikes and such he could muster a 3:28-high/3:29-low. He’d also train differently, but some of these issues were on him.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
Centro's career was during an era with Kiprop (3:26), makhloufi (3:28/1:42), Kiplagat (3:27), and Iguider (3:28). All pre-supershoes. This is arguably more impressive than the top guys now.
Now that you mention it, I think Hoey is the next mahkloufi. I know there are different opinions on the board about mahk daddy so take that statement however you’d like.
Centrowitz's career was during a weak era of distance running
Couldn't agree more. Centro's "gold" was the single biggest fluke in the history of the sport. That race gets run 100 times, he finished outside the top 8 on 99 of those occasions.
He will be remembered as a one hit wonder that struck lightning at the right moment.
You should check some of the other global championships in which he appeared.