I was thinking the same thing. Although I’ve never competed seriously, it does seem that some runners have a more dramatic fitness peak when it counts.
Also, Centro didn’t set an Olympic record. Both won gold medals, but Cole’s win was one of the top 5 best races I’ve ever watched (and I was rooting for Kerr thinking he was the only guy with a shot to beat Jakob).
No his 3000 indicated he could go low 12:50s at the very least, he must have peaked to hard indoors or have another issue going on since he was much fitter earlier this year.
But then he ran a 5,000 the next week and only could muster a 12:57. We might just be overestimating his 5,000 abilities. I think it’s been pretty much known he was fitter with his mini-peak indoors than early outdoors. Similar in 2021 and 2024. But his last GST was by far his best 1500 so Pre will be mire telling and we can see whether this Centro comp is correct or no. It’s also worth noting, Hocker finished top 2/3 in DLs post-Paris and did Centro ever do that with any regularity?
He's attempted to be competitive at the 8, 15 and 5k. Not an easy thing to do. I think he'll be relieved Grand Slam is done and he can get back to solely 15/5 focused training.
No his 3000 indicated he could go low 12:50s at the very least, he must have peaked to hard indoors or have another issue going on since he was much fitter earlier this year.
But then he ran a 5,000 the next week and only could muster a 12:57. We might just be overestimating his 5,000 abilities. I think it’s been pretty much known he was fitter with his mini-peak indoors than early outdoors. Similar in 2021 and 2024. But his last GST was by far his best 1500 so Pre will be mire telling and we can see whether this Centro comp is correct or no. It’s also worth noting, Hocker finished top 2/3 in DLs post-Paris and did Centro ever do that with any regularity?
No Centro didn’t ever do that with regularity, but Cole didn’t win those post Paris races though. It doesn’t matter whether he was second or tenth, he still lost. And that is part of my point; outside of USAs, Cole can’t seem to win during the regular season, just like Centro .
I was thinking the same thing. Although I’ve never competed seriously, it does seem that some runners have a more dramatic fitness peak when it counts.
Also, Centro didn’t set an Olympic record. Both won gold medals, but Cole’s win was one of the top 5 best races I’ve ever watched (and I was rooting for Kerr thinking he was the only guy with a shot to beat Jakob).
That Olympic record is impressive for getting it right on the right day. A superb performance that will live on forever.
However, when you adjust for the shoes, Centro’s 3:30 PR is really only slightly slower than Cole’s 3:27. Maybe a 3:28. So, when you look at the shoe adjustments, these two guys start to look identical in skill set.
Can't entirely disagree here. There are enough similarities. Centro performed big on the biggest stage but had trouble competing with the best during the regular season. Cole actually has more work to do to catch Centro because in addition to Centro winning Gold in Rio, remember he also won gold indoors once and medalled at world outdoors twice. He was the consummate championship racer.
Where I would disagree is that Cole has beaten stronger competition at the Olympics, and has the Olympic 1500m record, and stands at number 2 all time for indoor 3k at 7:23. Centro couldn't run that fast if his life depended on it, even with the enhanced shoes. As others have said, even if Cole never wins anything again, it would be difficult to make the case he hasn't somehow massively achieved.
Now to finally answer the thread question, the evidence we've seen is that Cole just is not strong enough at 5k to hang with the best in this insanely competitive era. Just like last season in his 5ks, in Stockholm he lost contact with the leaders and was never a factor. He's similar to his training partner Cooper Teare; good but not great at 5k.
If he's serious about ever making the US 5k team, he may need to actually focus just on 5k training and throw all his chips in. Trying to double the 15 and 5 looks impossible these days and you can't use Jakob as an example because he's gotten smoked in the 15 at major championships the last few years. It doesn't seem reachable for Cole to medal at both events. He probably will need to pick one. You would think he would just focus on the 1500 considering his far superior success at that distance. Maybe try to get his 800 pb down a little bit when he starts sharpening before Tokyo.
Just because Centro’s actual 3K pr is much slower, I doubt that’s what he was capable of. He ran a 13 flat 5k in 2019 past his prime and coming back from an injury. He could have easily ran 7:25 if he was focused on the distance and paced properly. With the shoe adjustments, that’s like a 7:22, a second faster than Cole. You see when you adjust for shoes, these two start to look identical in skill set.
Can't entirely disagree here. There are enough similarities. Centro performed big on the biggest stage but had trouble competing with the best during the regular season. Cole actually has more work to do to catch Centro because in addition to Centro winning Gold in Rio, remember he also won gold indoors once and medalled at world outdoors twice. He was the consummate championship racer.
Where I would disagree is that Cole has beaten stronger competition at the Olympics, and has the Olympic 1500m record, and stands at number 2 all time for indoor 3k at 7:23. Centro couldn't run that fast if his life depended on it, even with the enhanced shoes. As others have said, even if Cole never wins anything again, it would be difficult to make the case he hasn't somehow massively achieved.
Now to finally answer the thread question, the evidence we've seen is that Cole just is not strong enough at 5k to hang with the best in this insanely competitive era. Just like last season in his 5ks, in Stockholm he lost contact with the leaders and was never a factor. He's similar to his training partner Cooper Teare; good but not great at 5k.
If he's serious about ever making the US 5k team, he may need to actually focus just on 5k training and throw all his chips in. Trying to double the 15 and 5 looks impossible these days and you can't use Jakob as an example because he's gotten smoked in the 15 at major championships the last few years. It doesn't seem reachable for Cole to medal at both events. He probably will need to pick one. You would think he would just focus on the 1500 considering his far superior success at that distance. Maybe try to get his 800 pb down a little bit when he starts sharpening before Tokyo.
Just because Centro’s actual 3K pr is much slower, I doubt that’s what he was capable of. He ran a 13 flat 5k in 2019 past his prime and coming back from an injury. He could have easily ran 7:25 if he was focused on the distance and paced properly. With the shoe adjustments, that’s like a 7:22, a second faster than Cole. You see when you adjust for shoes, these two start to look identical in skill set.
So you are actually claiming that Matthew Centrowitz Jr. who never ran faster than 7:40 and actually only broke 3:33 like twice, could have EASILY ran 7:22 for 3k with the enhanced shoes? The same Matthew Centrowitz who won one diamond league race in ten years and won Rio in the second slowest time in like 70 years? He was actually this aerobic monster the whole time and was just running slower on purpose? You're going to defend your position?
Just because Centro’s actual 3K pr is much slower, I doubt that’s what he was capable of. He ran a 13 flat 5k in 2019 past his prime and coming back from an injury. He could have easily ran 7:25 if he was focused on the distance and paced properly. With the shoe adjustments, that’s like a 7:22, a second faster than Cole. You see when you adjust for shoes, these two start to look identical in skill set.
So you are actually claiming that Matthew Centrowitz Jr. who never ran faster than 7:40 and actually only broke 3:33 like twice, could have EASILY ran 7:22 for 3k with the enhanced shoes? The same Matthew Centrowitz who won one diamond league race in ten years and won Rio in the second slowest time in like 70 years? He was actually this aerobic monster the whole time and was just running slower on purpose? You're going to defend your position?
I guarantee that if the incentives were there and Centro had the advantages these guys have now, he would have EASILY ran 7:22. He is massively underrated as a contender for the GOAT conversation. He struck gold in Rio and Portland and came up just short in Daegu and Moscow. He was the Mo Farah of the 1500. He ran to WIN championships! The way this site abuses Centro’s legacy is criminal.
HOcker isn't what he thinks he is and what the fans all want. he's not an american ingebrigtsen. He's a pure 1500 meter runner on the world stage. 3000, sure. these aerobically strong 1500 runners can go strong for 7.5 minutes. not 12.5. big difference. Hocker and Kerr are different sides of the same coin.
No his 3000 indicated he could go low 12:50s at the very least, he must have peaked to hard indoors or have another issue going on since he was much fitter earlier this year.
IMO further indication some of these distance indoor times are inflated and don't directly correlate to outdoors. Some who can run 7:23 outdoors, shouldn't be bombing out of a race like this.
This post was edited 40 seconds after it was posted.
Also maybe he was lagged... flying in to EU does fatigue and if that race was straight off the plane then no disgrace.
You LRBF are also - surprisingly - overlooking the fact that Hocker does his own thing and has a history of not panicking with these kind of runs. When he runs his primary distance he gets it right.
You sound like hysterical witchhunters.
I think hes well positioned this season with his recent 1:45 low 800 PR and now backing into the 5k. If he gives the 5 another shot soon I wouldn't be surprised to see his PR go down
So you are actually claiming that Matthew Centrowitz Jr. who never ran faster than 7:40 and actually only broke 3:33 like twice, could have EASILY ran 7:22 for 3k with the enhanced shoes? The same Matthew Centrowitz who won one diamond league race in ten years and won Rio in the second slowest time in like 70 years? He was actually this aerobic monster the whole time and was just running slower on purpose? You're going to defend your position?
I guarantee that if the incentives were there and Centro had the advantages these guys have now, he would have EASILY ran 7:22. He is massively underrated as a contender for the GOAT conversation. He struck gold in Rio and Portland and came up just short in Daegu and Moscow. He was the Mo Farah of the 1500. He ran to WIN championships! The way this site abuses Centro’s legacy is criminal.
So you are actually claiming that Matthew Centrowitz Jr. who never ran faster than 7:40 and actually only broke 3:33 like twice, could have EASILY ran 7:22 for 3k with the enhanced shoes? The same Matthew Centrowitz who won one diamond league race in ten years and won Rio in the second slowest time in like 70 years? He was actually this aerobic monster the whole time and was just running slower on purpose? You're going to defend your position?
I guarantee that if the incentives were there and Centro had the advantages these guys have now, he would have EASILY ran 7:22. He is massively underrated as a contender for the GOAT conversation. He struck gold in Rio and Portland and came up just short in Daegu and Moscow. He was the Mo Farah of the 1500. He ran to WIN championships! The way this site abuses Centro’s legacy is criminal.
Good God. Learn to know what you are talking about. I don't remember the exact figure, but isn't the purse for the Diamond League Champion something like 100 grand? Not enough incentives? So Centro got smoked in all those DL races on purpose because there were no incentives? So why did he bother to participate in any of them for ten years? You may have said the most stupid thing I've heard on this board for some time.
Mo Farah of the 1500? He won a scrub Rio final with two drug cheats that Faith Kipyegon could have won, and a watered down indoor gold in Portland. He did medal at Worlds twice, but he didn't win either race, they were slow, and that is a far cry from the accomplishments of Mo Farah. The GOAT conversation? You're not serious?
I guarantee that if the incentives were there and Centro had the advantages these guys have now, he would have EASILY ran 7:22. He is massively underrated as a contender for the GOAT conversation. He struck gold in Rio and Portland and came up just short in Daegu and Moscow. He was the Mo Farah of the 1500. He ran to WIN championships! The way this site abuses Centro’s legacy is criminal.
Good God. Learn to know what you are talking about. I don't remember the exact figure, but isn't the purse for the Diamond League Champion something like 100 grand? Not enough incentives? So Centro got smoked in all those DL races on purpose because there were no incentives? So why did he bother to participate in any of them for ten years? You may have said the most stupid thing I've heard on this board for some time.
Mo Farah of the 1500? He won a scrub Rio final with two drug cheats that Faith Kipyegon could have won, and a watered down indoor gold in Portland. He did medal at Worlds twice, but he didn't win either race, they were slow, and that is a far cry from the accomplishments of Mo Farah. The GOAT conversation? You're not serious?
Why are people like you so bent on tarnishing Centro’s legacy? He is a gold medalist who doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Not to take anything away from Cole. His race in Paris was masterclass, but I’m just pointing that out he is a lot more like Centro than people realize, and yet people seem surprised that Cole is not out dominating every regular season race.
yea not sure why the choice of 5k after running 8/15's. His aerobic system somewhat compromised when trying to get to 1:44/43 shape. This will give his coach good info and I suspect an aerobic refresh before his next big 1500
Good God. Learn to know what you are talking about. I don't remember the exact figure, but isn't the purse for the Diamond League Champion something like 100 grand? Not enough incentives? So Centro got smoked in all those DL races on purpose because there were no incentives? So why did he bother to participate in any of them for ten years? You may have said the most stupid thing I've heard on this board for some time.
Mo Farah of the 1500? He won a scrub Rio final with two drug cheats that Faith Kipyegon could have won, and a watered down indoor gold in Portland. He did medal at Worlds twice, but he didn't win either race, they were slow, and that is a far cry from the accomplishments of Mo Farah. The GOAT conversation? You're not serious?
Why are people like you so bent on tarnishing Centro’s legacy? He is a gold medalist who doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Not to take anything away from Cole. His race in Paris was masterclass, but I’m just pointing that out he is a lot more like Centro than people realize, and yet people seem surprised that Cole is not out dominating every regular season race.
I'm not tarnishing Centro. You're putting words in my mouth. All I was doing was providing context and facts. I'm a fan of Centro, I just don't have delusions about his career like you apparently have.
He was not Farah of the 1500. Not even close. Tactician or not. In my initial reply I threw you a bone because Cole and Centro at this particular point in time are fairly comparable. I still give the edge to Hocker because he won Paris in an Olympic record and against better competition than Centro had in that scrub kick race in Rio. I will not ever concede that Centro could have run 7:22 for 3k. No way in hell.
I don't know. I just believe that this has always been a bad excuse. The GOATs: Bekele, El G, Kipchoge, Rudisha, etc. Were those guys ever content with losing during the regular season? No. They were champions who wanted to win ever damn race in the regular season and the championships. I just think that "training through it" has always been a lame excuse. Yes the Olympics and World Championships are the most important races, but the rest of the season doesn't matter? Why? El G barely ever lost. Same with Edwin Moses. Dominating the event should be celebrated and encouraged. Using the training block excuse sounds weasley and cowardly to me.