People running sub-4 while in high school isn't the only indicator to gauge Webb's influence. Look at the guys who started emerging after him: Leo Manzano, Andrew Wheating, Matthew Centrowitz, German Fernandez. None of them broke 4 in high school, but they had impressive achievements. Others who followed after Webb's record-breaking run in 2001 included Jeff See (ran a sophomore-class record 4:06 in 2003), AJ Acosta, Dorian Ulrey, and Garrett Heath.
Expanding the scope to American distance running more broadly, guys who followed Webb/The Big 3 included Chris Solinsky, Galen Rupp, Josh McDougal, Ben True, Chris Derrick, and Luke Puskedra.
Webb was so popular that when he went to Michigan, Nike released the Kennedy spikes in the school's colors.
Webb was an enormous influence for many young American distance runners in the 2000s. It would be naive to suggest otherwise.
Given who his dad is, you think Centro needed Webb’s existence to become a great runner? Rupp was already being coached by Salazar in HS and was actually better than Ritz.
Again, somebody else running fast doesn’t change someone’s ceiling.
Somebody else running fast doesn't change someone's ceiling, but it can inspire them to reach for whatever their ceiling is.
Leo Manzano, 2012 Olympic medalist: "When I was growing up I looked up to Alan Webb and later on got to compete against him."
Gary Cohen is an enthusiast for the sport of running. This enthusiasm has branched out to include magazine/essay writing, interviews, coaching and public speaking. In addition to those activities, Gary also leads trail runs i...
Good question. I think we should look at more than just relation to the world record, particularly because the women's world record is more of an outlier compared to the men's.
Some other metrics to consider:
World Standing All-Time: Webb was 125th at the time, Hedengren is now 110th
USA Standing All-Time: Webb was 19th at the time, Hedengren is now 20th
High School Margin: Webb broke the record by under 2 seconds; Hedengren is now more than 4 seconds faster than the #2 girl
We also need to consider that Webb broke the record while running in the Bowerman Mile, with the advantage of running behind pros the whole way. Hedengren had pacing help for the first two laps and then had to run the last two all on her own.
Based on the metrics I listed and the contextual differences in their races, I think Hedengren's record is objectively better.
That said, there is a subjective factor that must also be considered, which is the cultural significance of Webb's record at the time. He broke a legendary record that had stood for over 35 years. He was the first American high schooler to run under 4 in over 33 years. And he did it during an era in which U.S. distance running was in the doldrums. His run inspired the next generation of U.S. milers, and it was one of the key moments that helped revive American distance running. Plus, it was broadcast on national television! It was a special moment I'll never forget watching live.
We really can't understate how important Webb's record was for U.S. distance running. He (along with Ritz and Hall) represented the vanguard of a new generation of record-breaking American distance runners. In contrast, Hedengren seems like the latest (albeit clearly the greatest) in a steady production of high school female phenoms the last 15-16 years going back to Jordan Hasay. Hedengren is clearly special, but Webb seemed even more special, particularly in light of the sorry state of American distance running at the time.
So, my head says Hedengren, but my heart says Webb.
really uncanny to see people who write almost exactly like chat gpt
In terms of who came before them, I feel like they're pretty even. Webb broke Ryun's record by 2s, Hedengren broke Cain's record by like 3. The only thing is I feel like Hedengren could still go 1-2s faster with better pacing and competition. And it's an off event.
In terms of who came before them, I feel like they're pretty even. Webb broke Ryun's record by 2s, Hedengren broke Cain's record by like 3. The only thing is I feel like Hedengren could still go 1-2s faster with better pacing and competition. And it's an off event.
Cain’s 4:04.62 1500m, converts to 4:24.2 so they’re pretty similar. Cain actually ran that time as a 17-year old.
Webb's 3:53 time was very impressive but it was more impressive how he raced and beat so many pros to place 5th at the Pre Classic, finishing right behind Lagat.
I say Hedengren's time is more impressive, but Webb's performance is better if we look past just the time.
Would love to see Jane get into a pro field as well, I think she is capable of more in a better field.
Fundamentally different categories. Alan Webb's performance was legendary but he was racing against pros and no doubt had he been racing high school only competition he wouldn't have gone so fast. Had JH been racing against the best milers in the world and not having to lead the whole thing I think she goes quite a bit faster. So I vote for Jane's as the better performance.
It makes no sense to compare men and women's times as % of WR/AR, ranking in performance list, etc. because the men's field is a lot more competitive. The 20th man is (relatively speaking) more performant than the 20th woman because there are more men who have a serious go at elite running.
The arc of her 4-year hs career - including xc -- is arguably the greatest in hs girls distance running history. With still a couple months of racing to go.
What?
How in the world could a woman who has never come close to winning an xc title (she's never finished higher than 10th) and has zero HS records be "arguably the greatest HS girls distance runner in history?"
That's LAUGHABLE.
I mean seriously laughable.
Hell I just looked at the TFN list, she has 1 top 10 time. Tuohy won 3 nxn titles and is still all over the top 10 lists in mile, 3000 and 5000.
As for Hedegren, I'm stunned any stat might say her time is superior to Webb's (since her time is inferior to Cain's 1500, I don't even know why we are talking about this).
But Webb's run got him an appearance on the Letterman show. They aired the final of the USA 1500 live on ESPN's Sportscenter that year.
Hedengren needs to get against pros and go out slower - 64 and see if she can break 4:00. Then we can have this conversation.
The arc of her 4-year hs career - including xc -- is arguably the greatest in hs girls distance running history. With still a couple months of racing to go.
What?
How in the world could a woman who has never come close to winning an xc title (she's never finished higher than 10th) and has zero HS records be "arguably the greatest HS girls distance runner in history?
Well, Engelhardt has that infamous factor of longevity. She ran 4:35/9:59 as a freshman and q'd for NXN/FL in xc.
She won CA XC all 4 years in high school, q'd for NXN all 4 years (but ran fl twice) and holds the Woodward Park XC record, the one held by German on Boys side.
People followed Engelhardt through 4 years of high school, (3 Arcadia Wins, 3 CA mile wins skipping sr year) and she did ultimately hold the hs mile record twice at 4:32 and 4:27, prior to Hedengren.
2:02/4:27/9:50 4x nat xc qf, Woodward Park record, Olympic trials qualifier is really quite good.
Best ever??? No, missing nat xc title, fast 5000 and just lost her mile record...but she will end up Top10 all time, and probably #3 miler w/ Hedengren/Cain.
Hedengren only has this 1 year, but wow, what a year.
NXN xc record, 2:05/4:23/9:27/14:52. Best full year ever, let's see how June &July go.
How in the world could a woman who has never come close to winning an xc title (she's never finished higher than 10th) and has zero HS records be "arguably the greatest HS girls distance runner in history?
Well, Engelhardt has that infamous factor of longevity. She ran 4:35/9:59 as a freshman and q'd for NXN/FL in xc. . . .
Yes.
Exactly what I was referring to.
Thank you, sadie hawkins, for explicitly clarifying my point, as my concept was too subtle for Rojo to understand.
Webb had wind blockers and in effect, pacers to pull him; whereas, Jane had to solo.
Webb’s is worth 1157 points; whereas, Jane’s is worth 1167.
Verdict: Jane’s.
Comparing men's and women's performance is as meaningless as comparing vastly different sporting eras. Should we try to compare Abebe Bikila or even Derek Clayton to Conner Mantz? Not much point. Just enjoy the sport. Compare to the athletes they actually compete against.
4:23 is incredible. 3:53 was incredible too. 4:23 is still new, so harder to judge. One was front run. Get Jane in a pro race. If she can dominate the US later and the mark stands a long time, then they will seem like similar performances. If it's broken and she is merely good, then not as comparable.
Hedengren's not even a miler. With just 2:05-6 800m speed, this distance is too short for her. She crushed the record with no one to run with the last two laps, yet she is better at 3k/5k, lacking really good speed. To me, this indicates that she will be in the 14:40s at 5000m this year and a finalist at Trials. Top five at NCAA xc in the fall is well within her reach, maybe even a title, depending on how many top Kenyan women are in the NCAA.
Agreed. Hedengren is a 3k/5k type. Best I have ever seen on HS level. Cain was also phenomenal with 800 thru 2mile range. They are certainly the two best HSers.
Good question. I think we should look at more than just relation to the world record, particularly because the women's world record is more of an outlier compared to the men's.
Some other metrics to consider:
World Standing All-Time: Webb was 125th at the time, Hedengren is now 110th
USA Standing All-Time: Webb was 19th at the time, Hedengren is now 20th
High School Margin: Webb broke the record by under 2 seconds; Hedengren is now more than 4 seconds faster than the #2 girl
We also need to consider that Webb broke the record while running in the Bowerman Mile, with the advantage of running behind pros the whole way. Hedengren had pacing help for the first two laps and then had to run the last two all on her own.
Based on the metrics I listed and the contextual differences in their races, I think Hedengren's record is objectively better.
That said, there is a subjective factor that must also be considered, which is the cultural significance of Webb's record at the time. He broke a legendary record that had stood for over 35 years. He was the first American high schooler to run under 4 in over 33 years. And he did it during an era in which U.S. distance running was in the doldrums. His run inspired the next generation of U.S. milers, and it was one of the key moments that helped revive American distance running. Plus, it was broadcast on national television! It was a special moment I'll never forget watching live.
We really can't understate how important Webb's record was for U.S. distance running. He (along with Ritz and Hall) represented the vanguard of a new generation of record-breaking American distance runners. In contrast, Hedengren seems like the latest (albeit clearly the greatest) in a steady production of high school female phenoms the last 15-16 years going back to Jordan Hasay. Hedengren is clearly special, but Webb seemed even more special, particularly in light of the sorry state of American distance running at the time.
So, my head says Hedengren, but my heart says Webb.
really uncanny to see people who write almost exactly like chat gpt
LOL. I don’t use Chat GPT for writing, and even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t use it for posting here. I’ve been writing the same way on this board for years. You can check my posting history.
Also, I made a mistake in my post that Chat GPT wouldn’t have made: I wrote, “We really can’t understate how important Webb’s record was for U.S. distance running.” The word I meant to use was “overstate”. I was writing late at night, which led to the error.
Thanks for reading!
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
really uncanny to see people who write almost exactly like chat gpt
LOL. I don’t use Chat GPT for writing, and even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t use it for posting here. I’ve been writing the same way on this board for years. You can check my posting history.
Also, I made a mistake in my post that Chat GPT wouldn’t have made: I wrote, “We really can’t understate how important Webb’s record was for U.S. distance running.” The word I meant to use was “overstate”. I was writing late at night, which led to the error.
Thanks for reading!
I copied the text of his post into ChatGPT and asked if AI wrote it, and ChatGPT said no. I also thought it sounded a bit like AI but stand corrected
What is all this talk of supershoes? Are the current spikes really that different than they were before? These records are not being set in the Nike Vaporfly or equivalent. Doubt the modern spike is really all that game changing. I think the time gap with her HS colleagues is the most dispositive. The girls in the Hoka mile are truly elite, with the top 6 or so stacking up favorably with some of the "historic" figures (but not record holders) talked about on letsrun. I believe the top 6 were all under 4:40 and they were all in one race. How many girls in the 1990's and 2000's ran these times? Ore even 10 years ago? Not one or two girls, but 6 under 4:40 and there are likely another 5 or so who could do it on a given day. Add their equivalent two miles and you have a group that is as good as anyone but the historic record holders. Yet, JH was running a completely different race as we all know. I don't believe Webb, if he ran today, would be as far ahead of his peers. So, to me, JH is more of an outlier. Little has been discussed about just how fast the top 6 in this race where and yet how far ahead JH was from a group that is also elite even in historical context. As usual, the coverage was terrible and didn't even show the race within the race.