Just came here to say that this dude ran 15.7 150m in his workout today. That is an insanely fast time for an 800m runner. I wonder if he could crack 21 in the 200m...?
Just came here to say that this dude ran 15.7 150m in his workout today. That is an insanely fast time for an 800m runner. I wonder if he could crack 21 in the 200m...?
Yes, he definitely could. Based on his indoor times vs outdoor times senior year, there was a very good chance he was able to senior year of HS as well.
Just came here to say that this dude ran 15.7 150m in his workout today. That is an insanely fast time for an 800m runner. I wonder if he could crack 21 in the 200m...?
He just ran 21.48 +1.2 in his first 200M in three years, which is a PR for him. Crazy speed for an 800 guy
Serious question - is that helpful for an 800m guy? I always assumed his weakness was aerobic strength and assumed he should focus on that.
I would say so, yes, because speed is slightly more important than endurance in the 800m, and he ran like 4:30 mile/16:40s in the 5K in HS without doing any XC
Sumner is a great mix of top-end speed and speed endurance. Here's hoping he can string together a few healthy seasons in a row. His ceiling is quite high.
Serious question - is that helpful for an 800m guy? I always assumed his weakness was aerobic strength and assumed he should focus on that.
The fun thing i’ve learned over the years about the 800m is that you really should play to your strengths. That is not to say you should neglect your weak points, but here are a few anecdotal data points
I’m not a super fast sprinter, I have a pretty okay natural aerobic engine, but I’ve always been good at sprinting for a long time. My best workouts for 800m are 150-300m sprints nearly all out with long rest and the occasional hard 400m or 600m effort. Speed development, threshold, and Vo2Max work will supplement my ability to do that work but that is my bread and butter if i’m looking to train to race in that 600-1000m range.
One of the athletes I coach has really good natural speed, he ran about 11.4 in the 100m as a sophomore, and 51.5 in the 400m as a sophomore. He does best at <30 mpw and will run fantastic 800s training like a 400m runner who goes on a 3-5 mile easy run on his non workout days. I tried to increase his mileage to 40 mpw and train him more like a true 800m type, so introducing things like threshold intervals and more 1600-3200 paced work. Over indoors, he improved from 5:14 to 4:41 in the mile which is freaking massive, but he only ran a 2 second PB in the 800m and regressed 2 seconds in the 400m. We moved him back to his more sprinter esque training and he’s lopped another couple of seconds off of his 800m, and he’s back down to 52 flat in the 400m, but is back to about 4:50 in the mile.
Another one of the athletes I coach was the opposite. He had been running 25ish mpw before I picked him up, I worked him up to 40-45, and he went from 2:07 to 1:58 over indoors, and also went from 4:48 to 4:32 in the mile. He’s splitting 52s in relays so I think we are going to be able to get him down to about 1:55 and 4:20-4:25 without much top end speed work this season.
I think some peoples bodies treat the race like a distance race so you train them like they are training for a distance race, some people like me are in the middle, while some peoples bodies treat it like a sprint so you train them like it’s a sprint. Sumner is probably the latter.
Serious question - is that helpful for an 800m guy? I always assumed his weakness was aerobic strength and assumed he should focus on that.
The fun thing i’ve learned over the years about the 800m is that you really should play to your strengths. That is not to say you should neglect your weak points, but here are a few anecdotal data points
I’m not a super fast sprinter, I have a pretty okay natural aerobic engine, but I’ve always been good at sprinting for a long time. My best workouts for 800m are 150-300m sprints nearly all out with long rest and the occasional hard 400m or 600m effort. Speed development, threshold, and Vo2Max work will supplement my ability to do that work but that is my bread and butter if i’m looking to train to race in that 600-1000m range.
One of the athletes I coach has really good natural speed, he ran about 11.4 in the 100m as a sophomore, and 51.5 in the 400m as a sophomore. He does best at <30 mpw and will run fantastic 800s training like a 400m runner who goes on a 3-5 mile easy run on his non workout days. I tried to increase his mileage to 40 mpw and train him more like a true 800m type, so introducing things like threshold intervals and more 1600-3200 paced work. Over indoors, he improved from 5:14 to 4:41 in the mile which is freaking massive, but he only ran a 2 second PB in the 800m and regressed 2 seconds in the 400m. We moved him back to his more sprinter esque training and he’s lopped another couple of seconds off of his 800m, and he’s back down to 52 flat in the 400m, but is back to about 4:50 in the mile.
Another one of the athletes I coach was the opposite. He had been running 25ish mpw before I picked him up, I worked him up to 40-45, and he went from 2:07 to 1:58 over indoors, and also went from 4:48 to 4:32 in the mile. He’s splitting 52s in relays so I think we are going to be able to get him down to about 1:55 and 4:20-4:25 without much top end speed work this season.
I think some peoples bodies treat the race like a distance race so you train them like they are training for a distance race, some people like me are in the middle, while some peoples bodies treat it like a sprint so you train them like it’s a sprint. Sumner is probably the latter.
Great post. Thanks for sharing.
The 800m is super interesting in a sense that it there are quite a few different ways to train for it and also different types of 800 athletes really. You have the distance-leaning side, like the XC mile dudes, then you also have the 200/400 speedy athletes moving up
I would say 40-45 mpw for 800M training is a bit excessive (unless the athlete is focusing on XC and longer events like the mile and up)
Your first athlete that you describe is a lot more like Sumner's type, while the second is more similar to Kessler or Seb Coe type.
The fun thing i’ve learned over the years about the 800m is that you really should play to your strengths. That is not to say you should neglect your weak points, but here are a few anecdotal data points
I’m not a super fast sprinter, I have a pretty okay natural aerobic engine, but I’ve always been good at sprinting for a long time. My best workouts for 800m are 150-300m sprints nearly all out with long rest and the occasional hard 400m or 600m effort. Speed development, threshold, and Vo2Max work will supplement my ability to do that work but that is my bread and butter if i’m looking to train to race in that 600-1000m range.
One of the athletes I coach has really good natural speed, he ran about 11.4 in the 100m as a sophomore, and 51.5 in the 400m as a sophomore. He does best at <30 mpw and will run fantastic 800s training like a 400m runner who goes on a 3-5 mile easy run on his non workout days. I tried to increase his mileage to 40 mpw and train him more like a true 800m type, so introducing things like threshold intervals and more 1600-3200 paced work. Over indoors, he improved from 5:14 to 4:41 in the mile which is freaking massive, but he only ran a 2 second PB in the 800m and regressed 2 seconds in the 400m. We moved him back to his more sprinter esque training and he’s lopped another couple of seconds off of his 800m, and he’s back down to 52 flat in the 400m, but is back to about 4:50 in the mile.
Another one of the athletes I coach was the opposite. He had been running 25ish mpw before I picked him up, I worked him up to 40-45, and he went from 2:07 to 1:58 over indoors, and also went from 4:48 to 4:32 in the mile. He’s splitting 52s in relays so I think we are going to be able to get him down to about 1:55 and 4:20-4:25 without much top end speed work this season.
I think some peoples bodies treat the race like a distance race so you train them like they are training for a distance race, some people like me are in the middle, while some peoples bodies treat it like a sprint so you train them like it’s a sprint. Sumner is probably the latter.
Great post. Thanks for sharing.
The 800m is super interesting in a sense that it there are quite a few different ways to train for it and also different types of 800 athletes really. You have the distance-leaning side, like the XC mile dudes, then you also have the 200/400 speedy athletes moving up
I would say 40-45 mpw for 800M training is a bit excessive (unless the athlete is focusing on XC and longer events like the mile and up)
Your first athlete that you describe is a lot more like Sumner's type, while the second is more similar to Kessler or Seb Coe type.
Of course! And I agree.
I had them both running the 40 mpw because they both have the capability to be scoring members on their team from 200-3200m (it’s not the strongest program right now) and the more distance oriented athlete is more interested in the 800/1600 while the sprint based athlete is more interested in the 400/800.
1:51.61 at Georgia Tech Invitational this past Saturday. First outdoor 800m in two years.
Not a bad start but given what he's run already in the 600m and 400m, he'll for sure bounce back even stronger. He did this with the 400m during indoors too
1:51.61 at Georgia Tech Invitational this past Saturday. First outdoor 800m in two years.
Not a bad start but given what he's run already in the 600m and 400m, he'll for sure bounce back even stronger. He did this with the 400m during indoors too
7 seconds back of your PR in April. He's got an infinite amount of work to do if he wants to make it through rounds August 1st. He's rolled as far as I'm concerned.
1:51.61 at Georgia Tech Invitational this past Saturday. First outdoor 800m in two years.
Not a bad start but given what he's run already in the 600m and 400m, he'll for sure bounce back even stronger. He did this with the 400m during indoors too
7 seconds back of your PR in April. He's got an infinite amount of work to do if he wants to make it through rounds August 1st. He's rolled as far as I'm concerned.
Serious question - is that helpful for an 800m guy? I always assumed his weakness was aerobic strength and assumed he should focus on that.
The fun thing i’ve learned over the years about the 800m is that you really should play to your strengths. That is not to say you should neglect your weak points, but here are a few anecdotal data points
I’m not a super fast sprinter, I have a pretty okay natural aerobic engine, but I’ve always been good at sprinting for a long time. My best workouts for 800m are 150-300m sprints nearly all out with long rest and the occasional hard 400m or 600m effort. Speed development, threshold, and Vo2Max work will supplement my ability to do that work but that is my bread and butter if i’m looking to train to race in that 600-1000m range.
One of the athletes I coach has really good natural speed, he ran about 11.4 in the 100m as a sophomore, and 51.5 in the 400m as a sophomore. He does best at <30 mpw and will run fantastic 800s training like a 400m runner who goes on a 3-5 mile easy run on his non workout days. I tried to increase his mileage to 40 mpw and train him more like a true 800m type, so introducing things like threshold intervals and more 1600-3200 paced work. Over indoors, he improved from 5:14 to 4:41 in the mile which is freaking massive, but he only ran a 2 second PB in the 800m and regressed 2 seconds in the 400m. We moved him back to his more sprinter esque training and he’s lopped another couple of seconds off of his 800m, and he’s back down to 52 flat in the 400m, but is back to about 4:50 in the mile.
Another one of the athletes I coach was the opposite. He had been running 25ish mpw before I picked him up, I worked him up to 40-45, and he went from 2:07 to 1:58 over indoors, and also went from 4:48 to 4:32 in the mile. He’s splitting 52s in relays so I think we are going to be able to get him down to about 1:55 and 4:20-4:25 without much top end speed work this season.
I think some peoples bodies treat the race like a distance race so you train them like they are training for a distance race, some people like me are in the middle, while some peoples bodies treat it like a sprint so you train them like it’s a sprint. Sumner is probably the latter.
This is an excellent post BTW. This is basically my opinions on 800m training as well. It's very unpopular - the vast majority of coaches i've talked to are hard stuck on training to someone's weakness, which makes sense when you think about it, but doesn't always work in practice for some reason.
7 seconds back of your PR in April. He's got an infinite amount of work to do if he wants to make it through rounds August 1st. He's rolled as far as I'm concerned.
Check his TFRRS season progression his freshman year 😉
If today wasn't a workout like that Mt. Sac race he's fried. He ran 1:47 indoors in 2024, he ran 1:51 high this season indoors.
Don't want to hear about his 600m either, Michael Cherry has proven that fast times in that event mean nothing.
That Mt. Sac race wasn't a workout. He literally just bombed it. Will talked about Smith-Gilbert moving him out of the 800 for a while to run some 400s and get his confidence back in a post-NCAA interview two years ago.
Also, Michael Cherry isn't an 800 runner moving down, he's a 400 runner moving up. Big difference.
This post was edited 43 seconds after it was posted.
1:17.36 at Penn Relays today, certainly not his fastest but he took down a field of 1:44-1:46 800M guys by a whole second, which is yet another good sign!
Also honorable mention - Jonathan Jones, I think returning in his first race since 2023? Dude was a beast at UT, 44.4 and 1:45. Would definitely love to see him and Will face out more