counterpoint: grand slam and diamond league races dont pull/will not pull consistent high viewership. comparing march madness to ncaa track is a bit different because they actually pull numbers. and i mean, college basketball has the second most international athletes in collegiate athletics behind track. tennis has a large number of international athletes but nobody complains there.
you can even look at our own sport. look at the 100m men's NCAA final. 1/9 of the finalist were American. the men's bowerman finalist: 2/3 weren't american. top three in the men's 400 weren't american. Hell, this post is about a juco guy. have you seen NJCAA sprinting rosters? there's a lot of Caribbean guys who make up those rosters. and what happens in the end? the top american guys compete against top world talent and sharpen each other. We never see this level of complaining about "foreigners" in sprinting but because US distance running, especially in high school, is predominately white we for some reason have an issue when an east african comes here. we don't even see this level of complaining when an australian, canadian, european, or even south africans comes over. and i get it, the age here is the concern, and also his questionable eligibility, but you even see this complaining when its an 18 year old kenyan. you just can't win with distance fans. celebrate the accomplishments of eliud kipchoge or kelvin kiptum but if someone that has the same skin color as them comes to the US, those same fans start raising pitch forks
Sprinting maturity and distance running maturity are completely different.
A 24 year old (if he is 24) running world class times and having an 18, 19, or 20 year old toeing the line (in distance running) is akin to doping (results).
Stop trying to make this about race - it is not. That is your agenda.
Instead, think about what being a student athlete is all about. The vast majority will not be professional athletes. What they learn through athletics transfers to their lives in measurable and non measurable positive attributes that they take to their business and family lives.
If this madness continues, many athletes of normal age that just want a roaster spot to be on a team and don’t give a dam about NIL will look at these times and standards and give up. In the process that becomes a societal loss to the United States.
I don’t want my tax dollars funding this. The generations that have paid to develop the US University system to be the best in the world most likely wouldn’t agree with this.
Well, it is a bad thing if you want the NCAA to be a place for US runners to develop. It is a question of do you think it would be better if the Grand Slam, Diamond League, and NCAA are all essentially just pro circuits for elite pro-level talent?
I don't, for example, need three NBAs. I like March Madness to be different than the NBA. I like watching randos from Gonzaga compete against Cinderellas from Wake Forest (or wherever). Making the NCAA more like the NBA is not a "win" for me.
Same with running. The NCAA was awesome before we had these changes...
This guy isn't dominating the NBA (though he is good), so I am glad we got to watch him in the NCAA:
Referring to Chet Holmgren as a “rando from Gonzaga” is hilarious to me. as if he wasnt the number one player in his recruiting class going to a school that’s good at basketball. that’s like saying you enjoy watching Drew Griffith at Notre Dame. Drew’s spot isn’t getting taken away because a Kenyan is coming here
Importing a ton of foreign runners and roster limits will lead to high school doping becoming rampant. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned Griffith. Progressing from 4:09 to 3:57 in a year is something indeed.
Well, it is a bad thing if you want the NCAA to be a place for US runners to develop. It is a question of do you think it would be better if the Grand Slam, Diamond League, and NCAA are all essentially just pro circuits for elite pro-level talent?
I don't, for example, need three NBAs. I like March Madness to be different than the NBA. I like watching randos from Gonzaga compete against Cinderellas from Wake Forest (or wherever). Making the NCAA more like the NBA is not a "win" for me.
Same with running. The NCAA was awesome before we had these changes...
This guy isn't dominating the NBA (though he is good), so I am glad we got to watch him in the NCAA:
The NCAA is developing runners better than it ever has before. Nathan Green has a 3:32 pb too, Adam Spencer has a 3:31 pb and has been to WCs, and guys like Garcia Romo and Hocker ran 3:30-31 and were top 6 in the world right after winning NCAAs. Strand and Wolfe just ran 7:30, Nico Young bested most of Rupp's pbs last year, and there are half a dozen guys that can run faster than 13:12 right now.
I think it's interesting that you bring up March Madness as an example, when that's literally the NCAA lol. And FWIW, NCAA track and XC is different than the pro level, because there's a team element that doesn't exist at the pro level. No one is scoring athletes at WCs or the Olympics to see what country won the track meet, nor do clubs/teams compete for team scoring at USAs (outside of club XC but cmon that doesn't really count for much).
I think what sets the NCAA apart (besides the team aspect) is where it pulls its talent from, and the limited amount of time you can be in it. Sure, there are a few foreigners who are close to the top of the NCAA, but for all the complaining about OK State, BYU won NCAAs with a team full of people born and raised in Utah. UW has won the last 5 combined 1500/mile titles with 3 guys who grew up within an hour of campus. Habtom Samuel broke 27 and was still behind the goat Nico Young. To my eyes (and I've only been following the sport for 5 years now), the talent coming into the NCAA only raises the bar for the US athletes, and they keep meeting it.
I can promise you, Graham Blanks is better competing against Habtom Samuel. the same way Connor Mantz got better competing against Wesley Kiptoo. the same way Grant Fisher got better competing against Morgan McDonald. Iron sharpens Iron.
Yes, you are right. For the elites, it is good to be pushed like that. However, I don't see the NCAA simply as a place for the elite, future Olympians. It is more than that.
It is also a place where a 15:10 kid in high school can go to become a 13:50 runner. That won't happen, nor will the experiences and friendships and skills, if you can't get on teams because the roster size is reduced, the roster is full of imported "scorers," and walk-ons have been eliminated as a concept.
p.s. At least let American kids walk-on. It isn't like they are demanding cash and travel for goodness sake... the vast majority run for free anyway but under the new rules, even this is coming to an end.
Said what I wanted to say perfectly. Sick of people making the same tired argument of the person you responded too. The potential benefit of the half a dozen truly world class Americans who are theoretically pushed the extra 0.1 percent by these foreigners (which btw is already questionable, most of these guys are B/C level failed pro Kenyans, not 12:50 worldbeaters), is not even close to outweighed by the THOUSANDS of native born Americans who will now not be able to compete in college.
Many of these kids might not even go to college at all now without an athletic scholarship. How many doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses, pilots will our country lose because some lazy coaches wanted to import a cross-country team?
Justus Soget. Will the tariffs tomorrow stop Kenyan imports?
Just curious, anyone reading this, who believes Trump when he claims tariffs are a tax charged to other countries? I presume a ton of people still believe him, but is it like...everyone believes him now? Or half? Or the ones that just read headlines? Or what?
So blame the NCAA, not these athletes. the roster limits suck but its the consequences we have to deal with. to counter that, how much develop really goes on with "next tier" athletes at some programs? having been to an SEC school, the men's distance athletes of the category you're referring to get cut every year - way before these roster limits were a thing. go check texas a&m, alabama, or texas' xc rosters year to year and see how many kids disappear.
Yes, I agree. I am absolutely not blaming the kids. If I was a 13:10 B-league Kenyan I would be the first one moving to Indiana or TCU for a full-ride! That makes sense for the athletes.
The problem I have is 100% with the NCAA. They need to think about their actual constituents - the real American kids whose parents fund all the University of XYZ and XYZ State Universities.
The NCAA is not a farm league for the world or the Olympics. It is for college kids who are in college for learning AND who want to do sports as well. If that gets lost in the "NIL - transfer portal - roster limits - importing athletes" era, then I would ask the NCAA to take a look at their own mission statement for goodness sake:
Provide a world-class athletics and academic experience for student-athletes that fosters lifelong well-being
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
if anything, if someone truly wants to develop, go to a mid major or a d2 or d3 school.
The problem is that for 90% of American families, the only affordable colleges are the state schools. If competing at those schools is out of the question, then only rich kids can go to bougie D3 schools, pay $70,000 a year out of pocket, and run XC.
It would be nice if actual kids from Montana could run at Montana State. Does that make sense? If the roster is limited to 10 kids and 5 of them are from overseas, how does that help the kids of Montana?
if anything, if someone truly wants to develop, go to a mid major or a d2 or d3 school.
The problem is that for 90% of American families, the only affordable colleges are the state schools. If competing at those schools is out of the question, then only rich kids can go to bougie D3 schools, pay $70,000 a year out of pocket, and run XC.
It would be nice if actual kids from Montana could run at Montana State. Does that make sense? If the roster is limited to 10 kids and 5 of them are from overseas, how does that help the kids of Montana?
Exactly. I actually compete for a major conference school (not going to name it for obvious reasons), but strongly considered some mid-majors during my recruiting process. One the main reasons I decided against it was because exactly as you describe, the out of state tuition at many of these schools was simply too much even with an athletic scholarship.
Most state schools also give large academic scholarships to residents as well, which by the way you can't take with you into the transfer portal, for all the people who paint that as some easy fix for the athletes potentially effected. American public universities belong to the taxpayers. Period. Having a few extra Kenyan pacers for BUs next time trial does not in any way advance the public interest of the people of Arkansas, Minnesota, South Dakota, or Montana. The people of these states are entitled (yes I used the dirty E-word) to the scholarships their taxes fund. If this issue was more widely known it would probably poll 90 %+ against.
The NCAA is developing runners better than it ever has before. Nathan Green has a 3:32 pb too, Adam Spencer has a 3:31 pb and has been to WCs, and guys like Garcia Romo and Hocker ran 3:30-31 and were top 6 in the world right after winning NCAAs. Strand and Wolfe just ran 7:30, Nico Young bested most of Rupp's pbs last year, and there are half a dozen guys that can run faster than 13:12 right now.
I am not really worried about kids with a 3:32 potential. They will be fine. I am thinking of the thousands of 18 year old incoming-freshmen who are 15:10-15:30 XC kids and can't afford to go to some bougie D3 school, so they have to run at a state university (or quit the sport).
The 24 year-old Kenyan "freshman" who gets brought in might bump your team's stud runner down the the #2 spot. That is not what bothers me. What bothers me is that the same "bump" knocks the kid at the back of the roster off the team.
This post was edited 38 seconds after it was posted.
Well, it is a bad thing if you want the NCAA to be a place for US runners to develop. It is a question of do you think it would be better if the Grand Slam, Diamond League, and NCAA are all essentially just pro circuits for elite pro-level talent?
I don't, for example, need three NBAs. I like March Madness to be different than the NBA. I like watching randos from Gonzaga compete against Cinderellas from Wake Forest (or wherever). Making the NCAA more like the NBA is not a "win" for me.
Same with running. The NCAA was awesome before we had these changes...
This guy isn't dominating the NBA (though he is good), so I am glad we got to watch him in the NCAA:
The NCAA is developing runners better than it ever has before. Nathan Green has a 3:32 pb too, Adam Spencer has a 3:31 pb and has been to WCs, and guys like Garcia Romo and Hocker ran 3:30-31 and were top 6 in the world right after winning NCAAs. Strand and Wolfe just ran 7:30, Nico Young bested most of Rupp's pbs last year, and there are half a dozen guys that can run faster than 13:12 right now.
I think it's interesting that you bring up March Madness as an example, when that's literally the NCAA lol. And FWIW, NCAA track and XC is different than the pro level, because there's a team element that doesn't exist at the pro level. No one is scoring athletes at WCs or the Olympics to see what country won the track meet, nor do clubs/teams compete for team scoring at USAs (outside of club XC but cmon that doesn't really count for much).
I think what sets the NCAA apart (besides the team aspect) is where it pulls its talent from, and the limited amount of time you can be in it. Sure, there are a few foreigners who are close to the top of the NCAA, but for all the complaining about OK State, BYU won NCAAs with a team full of people born and raised in Utah. UW has won the last 5 combined 1500/mile titles with 3 guys who grew up within an hour of campus. Habtom Samuel broke 27 and was still behind the goat Nico Young. To my eyes (and I've only been following the sport for 5 years now), the talent coming into the NCAA only raises the bar for the US athletes, and they keep meeting it.
The point is it is not about the sub 4:10 guys in HS who have been running their whole lives. It is about the 4:20 guys who ran for random programs or the talented walkons who just need a chance to show their talent. And even ignoring non high tier talent who mostly don't need to worry but the 15:00 guys trying to run and improve will get cut for athletes who are overage(I don't have a problem with people from other countries but the age thing really is not fair).
