Yes, I have listened to this Swedish pod cast (“Maratonlabbet, ep 205”) and Nordic R’s translation of what Almgren was saying is good.
Andreas Almgren is a friend and admirer of Jakob, and sometimes (not very often I think) they have trained together in the altitude in Sierra Nevada, Spain. Almgren does, as far as I know, his training in accordance to the “Norwegian model”, but with some adjustments (e.g cycling). And in 2023/2024 he said that he thought Jakob could break both the HM and the marathon WR’s based on his threshold training…
I don’t trust Almgren, or Jakob, or anyone else for that matter -I only trust performances,
I think this is the case: Jakob and Andreas (Almgren) have both thought when a guy (Jakob) hasn’t the best of 800m speed, but still excels in the 1500/3000/5000m and some European long xc’s, yes, then he has to be better the longer the distance. And that his high mileage training only supports this even more….
But the reality is that we don’t know! And the reality is that Jakob is full of contradictory sayings and superficial “explanation” (in between a wall of too spares information -f.x did Jakob in his own view have a really really off day in Copenhagen or not…!) So we don’t know the background at all for Jakob’s history of really bad distance races, and can only guess (f.x that the hills was the problem in Euros 2022 and U20 xc WC, and not the length, and that he was too young in his 10k in 2019, and that Copenhagen hit him in the face because of his sickness one weak earlier or too little rest, or too much track focus, and that his Euros xc 2024 proves that he would beat 26.50 +/- guys, despite the race being only 7.82 k long, and with a slowish first part that made it to a 5k lookalike…).
Jakob was better in Euros 2024 xc than I had feared. And now Almgren says that the Norwegian is significantly better than himself in the sprint training (said by a guy that had 48.33/1.45.5 as a teenager, even 48.38 indoors in addition) and in the middle part, and in the endurance training. And in an other interview the Swede tells that Jakob is so strong in the 200m hills repeats that he himself has to give a gap not to be burnt…
OK -Almgren claims that Jakob is significantly better than himself also in the endurance parts. -I don’t know what that exactly means; maybe f.x 5x2000m or 5/6x6min with short rest at the longest. And yes, I believe Almgren if he would stress that Jakob also here got less lactate and heart rate than himself. But is this enough to point to Jakob as a supreme 10000m runner (or even HM)..?! -I think not; of course a 7.17 guy won’t struggle in this training together with a 7.34 guy (Almgren)! But what if they did specific training that suited the 26.52/ 59.23 guy better…?!
Saying all this I will not rule out that Jakob has it in him to become a splendid distance runner (aside of the 3k/2 mile). But we just haven’t seen it yet; in no of his 5000m wins has number two had a pb better than 12.45 -no test if you ask me….
1. 7:34 does obviously not reflect Almgrens current level.
2. Weird definition of splendid distance runner considering he is the double world and olympic champion and is undefeted since 2019 in 5000m
3. In the Olympic final Jakob toyed with world number two in history 12:36 man Hagos Gebrhiwet
3.1 He is also 3-0 vs world record holder Joshua Cheptegei
1. 7:34 does obviously not reflect Almgrens current level.
2. Weird definition of splendid distance runner considering he is the double world and olympic champion and is undefeted since 2019 in 5000m
3. In the Olympic final Jakob toyed with world number two in history 12:36 man Hagos Gebrhiwet
You are of course right about point 1.
Point 2/3: Yes, Jakob probably was better than the rest of the world in 2021 and 2022, but the world level was quite poor. And in 2023/2024 he didn’t meet the best at their peak (Gebrhiwet covid in OG, Cheptegei absent because of prioritising the 10000m -never ever met the Ugandan at his peak).
All this talk about DT+hills and this guy is doing two of the most traditional track sessions OF ALL TIMES!!!
You guys really havent looked into the double treshold way of training? Neither Almgren nor Jakob deviates from that philosophy.
Hills is mostly during fall-spring. Then its track workouts. And, track workouts happen occasionally during those months as well.
Also, Jakob basically never does anything complicated or "innovating" in terms of workouts. Its all simple stuff.
15x400m is just one of the treshold workouts with fewer reps and higher intensity, same with the 1k workout. Nothing unusual. Both athletes do DT all year. But not hills.
Pretty sure Jakob doesn’t do DT but switches to specificity and easy volume in competition season.
I hope CuriousDude notices this post, especially Almgren´s statements regarding Jakob.
CuriousDude has many times expressed his uncertainty about Jakob´s 10k ability.
Yes, I have listened to this Swedish pod cast (“Maratonlabbet, ep 205”) and Nordic R’s translation of what Almgren was saying is good.
Andreas Almgren is a friend and admirer of Jakob, and sometimes (not very often I think) they have trained together in the altitude in Sierra Nevada, Spain. Almgren does, as far as I know, his training in accordance to the “Norwegian model”, but with some adjustments (e.g cycling). And in 2023/2024 he said that he thought Jakob could break both the HM and the marathon WR’s based on his threshold training…
I don’t trust Almgren, or Jakob, or anyone else for that matter -I only trust performances,
I think this is the case: Jakob and Andreas (Almgren) have both thought when a guy (Jakob) hasn’t the best of 800m speed, but still excels in the 1500/3000/5000m and some European long xc’s, yes, then he has to be better the longer the distance. And that his high mileage training only supports this even more….
But the reality is that we don’t know! And the reality is that Jakob is full of contradictory sayings and superficial “explanation” (in between a wall of too spares information -f.x did Jakob in his own view have a really really off day in Copenhagen or not…!) So we don’t know the background at all for Jakob’s history of really bad distance races, and can only guess (f.x that the hills was the problem in Euros 2022 and U20 xc WC, and not the length, and that he was too young in his 10k in 2019, and that Copenhagen hit him in the face because of his sickness one weak earlier or too little rest, or too much track focus, and that his Euros xc 2024 proves that he would beat 26.50 +/- guys, despite the race being only 7.82 k long, and with a slowish first part that made it to a 5k lookalike…).
Jakob was better in Euros 2024 xc than I had feared. And now Almgren says that the Norwegian is significantly better than himself in the sprint training (said by a guy that had 48.33/1.45.5 as a teenager, even 48.38 indoors in addition) and in the middle part, and in the endurance training. And in an other interview the Swede tells that Jakob is so strong in the 200m hills repeats that he himself has to give a gap not to be burnt…
OK -Almgren claims that Jakob is significantly better than himself also in the endurance parts. -I don’t know what that exactly means; maybe f.x 5x2000m or 5/6x6min with short rest at the longest. And yes, I believe Almgren if he would stress that Jakob also here got less lactate and heart rate than himself. But is this enough to point to Jakob as a supreme 10000m runner (or even HM)..?! -I think not; of course a 7.17 guy won’t struggle in this training together with a 7.34 guy (Almgren)! But what if they did specific training that suited the 26.52/ 59.23 guy better…?!
Saying all this I will not rule out that Jakob has it in him to become a splendid distance runner (aside of the 3k/2 mile). But we just haven’t seen it yet; in no of his 5000m wins has number two had a pb better than 12.45 -no test if you ask me….
It is strange that a non Norwegian once again must point out how a declared NORWEGIAN supporter of Jakob is way too cautious when estimating Jakob´s 10k potential.
We have discussed it many times so I only have some additional comments:
1. "Jakob was better in Euros 2024 XC than I had feared". It sounds like he ran a respectable race despite your fears of the opposite.
Hello, he completely destroyed his competition, including especially Thierry Ndikumwenayo who you before the race considered a worthy competitor and who had beaten Aregawi shortly before.
Jakob - over the last appr. 700m where he really took off - ran 7 seconds faster than Crippa, 13 seconds faster than Ndikumwenayo and 12 seconds faster than Almgren. Is that because Jakob is so much faster in a 700m race?
Of course not. It is because he has a superior aerobic capacity so he after running appr. 7.1 km has much more left in the tank than his competitors so it looks like he is cruising when the others are struggling.
And this superior aerobic capacity will not "evaporate" just because he would be running a little over 2km longer.
2. Jakob could possibly have broken the 5000m WR if he had run it in Paris in 2023 instead of the 2 miles OR at least when he broke the 2000m WR later that season (where he seemed to be even stronger than in Paris). OR when he ran 7:17.55 in the 3000m in 2024 ( this race was relatively sigficantly faster than his 2 miles race; indicates a 2 miles time in mid 7:51). The 3000m distance is so close to the 5000m that it is unthinkable that he can´t run a world class time in the 5000m (at least in the 12:30´s). His 3000m WR indicates a 5000m in just over 12:30 well below Cheptegei´s 12:35 WR.
By the way: I bet that Cheptegei has a much more realistic view on Jakob´s ability in the 5000m than you have. And so have Kiplimo, Gebrhiwet, Aregawi, Kejelcha, Barega, Fisher and other top runners, obviously including Almgren.
It is strange that a non Norwegian once again must point out how a declared NORWEGIAN supporter of Jakob is way too cautious when estimating Jakob´s 10k potential.
We have discussed it many times so I only have some additional comments:
1. "Jakob was better in Euros 2024 XC than I had feared". It sounds like he ran a respectable race despite your fears of the opposite.
Hello, he completely destroyed his competition, including especially Thierry Ndikumwenayo who you before the race considered a worthy competitor and who had beaten Aregawi shortly before.
Jakob - over the last appr. 700m where he really took off - ran 7 seconds faster than Crippa, 13 seconds faster than Ndikumwenayo and 12 seconds faster than Almgren. Is that because Jakob is so much faster in a 700m race?
Of course not. It is because he has a superior aerobic capacity so he after running appr. 7.1 km has much more left in the tank than his competitors so it looks like he is cruising when the others are struggling.
And this superior aerobic capacity will not "evaporate" just because he would be running a little over 2km longer.
2. Jakob could possibly have broken the 5000m WR if he had run it in Paris in 2023 instead of the 2 miles OR at least when he broke the 2000m WR later that season (where he seemed to be even stronger than in Paris). OR when he ran 7:17.55 in the 3000m in 2024 ( this race was relatively sigficantly faster than his 2 miles race; indicates a 2 miles time in mid 7:51). The 3000m distance is so close to the 5000m that it is unthinkable that he can´t run a world class time in the 5000m (at least in the 12:30´s). His 3000m WR indicates a 5000m in just over 12:30 well below Cheptegei´s 12:35 WR.
By the way: I bet that Cheptegei has a much more realistic view on Jakob´s ability in the 5000m than you have. And so have Kiplimo, Gebrhiwet, Aregawi, Kejelcha, Barega, Fisher and other top runners, obviously including Almgren.
I don’t know what to make of Jakob -he seems like a really really strange dude (also running wise); somewhat like Narve Gilje Nordås, but of course not that strange. But of course it could be me, and not them…
Jakob has always been really good in the 5000m, both as a child and a teenager (f.x in his Nationals 13.35 win as a 16 years old, where he clearly could have run faster). -That’s a good thing, obviously. But a year later Jakob talked about how hard and taxing he felt this distance is, and it wasn’t only the talking -in WC u20 2018 he had to give a huge gap quite early, despite eventually closing it, and as a contender for the win beat both Barega and Kiplimo. But at the same time he also started struggle (this went on for years) with the opening pace in the 1500m, so much that one would think he was really slow in a 800m. But he wasn’t -1.49 low in a wide run race as a 16 years old and 1.46.44 as 19. (And probably faster now). And curious enough Nordås was very much the same, only even more extremely…
So what the heck is the problem? Is it the body type, the training, something mental or just a strategy..?
In Jakob’s break through 5000m race (Florence 2021) he again had to give a significant gap (around the 3k mark, I believe), despite a comfortable pace. And then he won easily, in a European record…
Don’t get me wrong -I have myself raced the 800/1500/3000/5000m, and know that the latter can be hellish, especially if one isn’t adequately trained. But I thought Jakob was..?
I think Jakob “easily” can break the mile WR, and maybe also the 1500m, and also better his 3000 meter. And I think he can crush his opponents in a global 1500m champs. But I wonder if his excellenc here is part of the problem -that it ruins his 5000m/10k/HM…?
Compare Jakob to the two last world record holders in the 400m -decent, but not very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, WR in the 400m. And then throw in Bolt -very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, no WR in the 400m..! (But of course decent in the latter as a neighbouring event to the 200m, but not very good). And Jakob: Very good in the 1500m, very / extremely good in the 3000m, not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m (as his global wins against not peaked rivals shows).
Maybe Jakob’s 3000m makes him worse and without talent in the 5000m and above. Or the training. But there’s no physical law here; Hassan and Assefa and others have showed that excellence throughout range is possible …
I don’t know if I believe in my reasoning above. But it’s an alternative I can’t forget…
So to the Euros xc 2024. -Yes, it was the best argument against my reasoning above I know of for now, together with Almgren’s words about how good Jakob is in the endurance training. And when Jakob so easily beats multiple strong 5/10k/HM guys (and a WC xc 9th placer) then it speaks volume about at least a 26.50 capacity for the Norwegian. But can we be certain of that in a slow 7.8k race, and has Jakob changed his base training / added some longer tempos? 26.50 is nevertheless not good enough, but maybe his on to something..?
PS. When i call Jakob strange I clearly mean that positively. He has brought huge joy to a lot of us…
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
It is strange that a non Norwegian once again must point out how a declared NORWEGIAN supporter of Jakob is way too cautious when estimating Jakob´s 10k potential.
We have discussed it many times so I only have some additional comments:
1. "Jakob was better in Euros 2024 XC than I had feared". It sounds like he ran a respectable race despite your fears of the opposite.
Hello, he completely destroyed his competition, including especially Thierry Ndikumwenayo who you before the race considered a worthy competitor and who had beaten Aregawi shortly before.
Jakob - over the last appr. 700m where he really took off - ran 7 seconds faster than Crippa, 13 seconds faster than Ndikumwenayo and 12 seconds faster than Almgren. Is that because Jakob is so much faster in a 700m race?
Of course not. It is because he has a superior aerobic capacity so he after running appr. 7.1 km has much more left in the tank than his competitors so it looks like he is cruising when the others are struggling.
And this superior aerobic capacity will not "evaporate" just because he would be running a little over 2km longer.
2. Jakob could possibly have broken the 5000m WR if he had run it in Paris in 2023 instead of the 2 miles OR at least when he broke the 2000m WR later that season (where he seemed to be even stronger than in Paris). OR when he ran 7:17.55 in the 3000m in 2024 ( this race was relatively sigficantly faster than his 2 miles race; indicates a 2 miles time in mid 7:51). The 3000m distance is so close to the 5000m that it is unthinkable that he can´t run a world class time in the 5000m (at least in the 12:30´s). His 3000m WR indicates a 5000m in just over 12:30 well below Cheptegei´s 12:35 WR.
By the way: I bet that Cheptegei has a much more realistic view on Jakob´s ability in the 5000m than you have. And so have Kiplimo, Gebrhiwet, Aregawi, Kejelcha, Barega, Fisher and other top runners, obviously including Almgren.
I don’t know what to make of Jakob -he seems like a really really strange dude (also running wise); somewhat like Narve Gilje Nordås, but of course not that strange. But of course it could be me, and not them…
Jakob has always been really good in the 5000m, both as a child and a teenager (f.x in his Nationals 13.35 win as a 16 years old, where he clearly could have run faster). -That’s a good thing, obviously. But a year later Jakob talked about how hard and taxing he felt this distance is, and it wasn’t only the talking -in WC u20 2018 he had to give a huge gap quite early, despite eventually closing it, and as a contender for the win beat both Barega and Kiplimo. But at the same time he also started struggle (this went on for years) with the opening pace in the 1500m, so much that one would think he was really slow in a 800m. But he wasn’t -1.49 low in a wide run race as a 16 years old and 1.46.44 as 19. (And probably faster now). And curious enough Nordås was very much the same, only even more extremely…
So what the heck is the problem? Is it the body type, the training, something mental or just a strategy..?
In Jakob’s break through 5000m race (Florence 2021) he again had to give a significant gap (around the 3k mark, I believe), despite a comfortable pace. And then he won easily, in a European record…
Don’t get me wrong -I have myself raced the 800/1500/3000/5000m, and know that the latter can be hellish, especially if one isn’t adequately trained. But I thought Jakob was..?
I think Jakob “easily” can break the mile WR, and maybe also the 1500m, and also better his 3000 meter. And I think he can crush his opponents in a global 1500m champs. But I wonder if his excellenc here is part of the problem -that it ruins his 5000m/10k/HM…?
Compare Jakob to the two last world record holders in the 400m -decent, but not very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, WR in the 400m. And then throw in Bolt -very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, no WR in the 400m..! (But of course decent in the latter as a neighbouring event to the 200m, but not very good). And Jakob: Very good in the 1500m, very / extremely good in the 3000m, not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m (as his global wins against not peaked rivals shows).
Maybe Jakob’s 3000m makes him worse and without talent in the 5000m and above. Or the training. But there’s no physical law here; Hassan and Assefa and others have showed that excellence throughout range is possible …
I don’t know if I believe in my reasoning above. But it’s an alternative I can’t forget…
So to the Euros xc 2024. -Yes, it was the best argument against my reasoning above I know of for now, together with Almgren’s words about how good Jakob is in the endurance training. And when Jakob so easily beats multiple strong 5/10k/HM guys (and a WC xc 9th placer) then it speaks volume about at least a 26.50 capacity for the Norwegian. But can we be certain of that in a slow 7.8k race, and has Jakob changed his base training / added some longer tempos? 26.50 is nevertheless not good enough, but maybe his on to something..?
PS. When i call Jakob strange I clearly mean that positively. He has brought huge joy to a lot of us…
Dear CuriousDude
I will answer later this time commenting on each of your points but I can disclose that I still think you go in "the opposite ditch" (den modsatte grøft) in your eagerness to stay neutral in relation to your young compatriot.
I don’t know what to make of Jakob -he seems like a really really strange dude (also running wise); somewhat like Narve Gilje Nordås, but of course not that strange. But of course it could be me, and not them…
Jakob has always been really good in the 5000m, both as a child and a teenager (f.x in his Nationals 13.35 win as a 16 years old, where he clearly could have run faster). -That’s a good thing, obviously. But a year later Jakob talked about how hard and taxing he felt this distance is, and it wasn’t only the talking -in WC u20 2018 he had to give a huge gap quite early, despite eventually closing it, and as a contender for the win beat both Barega and Kiplimo. But at the same time he also started struggle (this went on for years) with the opening pace in the 1500m, so much that one would think he was really slow in a 800m. But he wasn’t -1.49 low in a wide run race as a 16 years old and 1.46.44 as 19. (And probably faster now). And curious enough Nordås was very much the same, only even more extremely…
So what the heck is the problem? Is it the body type, the training, something mental or just a strategy..?
In Jakob’s break through 5000m race (Florence 2021) he again had to give a significant gap (around the 3k mark, I believe), despite a comfortable pace. And then he won easily, in a European record…
Don’t get me wrong -I have myself raced the 800/1500/3000/5000m, and know that the latter can be hellish, especially if one isn’t adequately trained. But I thought Jakob was..?
I think Jakob “easily” can break the mile WR, and maybe also the 1500m, and also better his 3000 meter. And I think he can crush his opponents in a global 1500m champs. But I wonder if his excellenc here is part of the problem -that it ruins his 5000m/10k/HM…?
Compare Jakob to the two last world record holders in the 400m -decent, but not very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, WR in the 400m. And then throw in Bolt -very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, no WR in the 400m..! (But of course decent in the latter as a neighbouring event to the 200m, but not very good). And Jakob: Very good in the 1500m, very / extremely good in the 3000m, not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m (as his global wins against not peaked rivals shows).
Maybe Jakob’s 3000m makes him worse and without talent in the 5000m and above. Or the training. But there’s no physical law here; Hassan and Assefa and others have showed that excellence throughout range is possible …
I don’t know if I believe in my reasoning above. But it’s an alternative I can’t forget…
So to the Euros xc 2024. -Yes, it was the best argument against my reasoning above I know of for now, together with Almgren’s words about how good Jakob is in the endurance training. And when Jakob so easily beats multiple strong 5/10k/HM guys (and a WC xc 9th placer) then it speaks volume about at least a 26.50 capacity for the Norwegian. But can we be certain of that in a slow 7.8k race, and has Jakob changed his base training / added some longer tempos? 26.50 is nevertheless not good enough, but maybe his on to something..?
PS. When i call Jakob strange I clearly mean that positively. He has brought huge joy to a lot of us…
I think it is reasonable to question Jakob against the absolute best in an all-out 10K race, though few of these exist. There is a gap at 10K between Almgren and the top tier engines of guys like Kejelcha, Aregawi, Kiplimo, Fisher and Cheptegei. 5K though not really worth questioning. He ran 12:48 as a lesser athlete with less lifetime base. I have no doubt he would thrive in a fast one, the question is really 12:39 or a world record of 12:31-12:35?
I think it is reasonable to question Jakob against the absolute best in an all-out 10K race, though few of these exist. There is a gap at 10K between Almgren and the top tier engines of guys like Kejelcha, Aregawi, Kiplimo, Fisher and Cheptegei. 5K though not really worth questioning. He ran 12:48 as a lesser athlete with less lifetime base. I have no doubt he would thrive in a fast one, the question is really 12:39 or a world record of 12:31-12:35?
Well, in one of my recent posts I suggested a 12.38 for Jakob. But if so I think he is vulnerable to be beaten in a DL like the Bislett games (Gebrhiwet 12.36/ Kejelcha 12.38) but not in a champs race. This first thing would of course be a huge blow for his fans…
If he only dips sub 12.40 it’s interesting that the 5000m only will be his third best event of the regular ones. -That would give a pattern of being worse the longer the distance above 3000m, with a sweet spot maybe around 2k/3k. But a guy like Mo Farah seemed to be able to combine excellence in 1500 and the 10000m, so maybe Jakob could manage to shift his sweet spot to the right (by different training) eventually..? And a guy like Canova thinks that 1500/10000m can be combined with a well prepared and decent (single) HM in the base period (but not a full marathon)…. Time will tell…
It is strange that a non Norwegian once again must point out how a declared NORWEGIAN supporter of Jakob is way too cautious when estimating Jakob´s 10k potential.
We have discussed it many times so I only have some additional comments:
1. "Jakob was better in Euros 2024 XC than I had feared". It sounds like he ran a respectable race despite your fears of the opposite.
Hello, he completely destroyed his competition, including especially Thierry Ndikumwenayo who you before the race considered a worthy competitor and who had beaten Aregawi shortly before.
Jakob - over the last appr. 700m where he really took off - ran 7 seconds faster than Crippa, 13 seconds faster than Ndikumwenayo and 12 seconds faster than Almgren. Is that because Jakob is so much faster in a 700m race?
Of course not. It is because he has a superior aerobic capacity so he after running appr. 7.1 km has much more left in the tank than his competitors so it looks like he is cruising when the others are struggling.
And this superior aerobic capacity will not "evaporate" just because he would be running a little over 2km longer.
2. Jakob could possibly have broken the 5000m WR if he had run it in Paris in 2023 instead of the 2 miles OR at least when he broke the 2000m WR later that season (where he seemed to be even stronger than in Paris). OR when he ran 7:17.55 in the 3000m in 2024 ( this race was relatively sigficantly faster than his 2 miles race; indicates a 2 miles time in mid 7:51). The 3000m distance is so close to the 5000m that it is unthinkable that he can´t run a world class time in the 5000m (at least in the 12:30´s). His 3000m WR indicates a 5000m in just over 12:30 well below Cheptegei´s 12:35 WR.
By the way: I bet that Cheptegei has a much more realistic view on Jakob´s ability in the 5000m than you have. And so have Kiplimo, Gebrhiwet, Aregawi, Kejelcha, Barega, Fisher and other top runners, obviously including Almgren.
I don’t know what to make of Jakob -he seems like a really really strange dude (also running wise); somewhat like Narve Gilje Nordås, but of course not that strange. But of course it could be me, and not them…
Jakob has always been really good in the 5000m, both as a child and a teenager (f.x in his Nationals 13.35 win as a 16 years old, where he clearly could have run faster). -That’s a good thing, obviously. But a year later Jakob talked about how hard and taxing he felt this distance is, and it wasn’t only the talking -in WC u20 2018 he had to give a huge gap quite early, despite eventually closing it, and as a contender for the win beat both Barega and Kiplimo. But at the same time he also started struggle (this went on for years) with the opening pace in the 1500m, so much that one would think he was really slow in a 800m. But he wasn’t -1.49 low in a wide run race as a 16 years old and 1.46.44 as 19. (And probably faster now). And curious enough Nordås was very much the same, only even more extremely…
So what the heck is the problem? Is it the body type, the training, something mental or just a strategy..?
In Jakob’s break through 5000m race (Florence 2021) he again had to give a significant gap (around the 3k mark, I believe), despite a comfortable pace. And then he won easily, in a European record…
Don’t get me wrong -I have myself raced the 800/1500/3000/5000m, and know that the latter can be hellish, especially if one isn’t adequately trained. But I thought Jakob was..?
I think Jakob “easily” can break the mile WR, and maybe also the 1500m, and also better his 3000 meter. And I think he can crush his opponents in a global 1500m champs. But I wonder if his excellenc here is part of the problem -that it ruins his 5000m/10k/HM…?
Compare Jakob to the two last world record holders in the 400m -decent, but not very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, WR in the 400m. And then throw in Bolt -very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, no WR in the 400m..! (But of course decent in the latter as a neighbouring event to the 200m, but not very good). And Jakob: Very good in the 1500m, very / extremely good in the 3000m, not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m (as his global wins against not peaked rivals shows).
Maybe Jakob’s 3000m makes him worse and without talent in the 5000m and above. Or the training. But there’s no physical law here; Hassan and Assefa and others have showed that excellence throughout range is possible …
I don’t know if I believe in my reasoning above. But it’s an alternative I can’t forget…
So to the Euros xc 2024. -Yes, it was the best argument against my reasoning above I know of for now, together with Almgren’s words about how good Jakob is in the endurance training. And when Jakob so easily beats multiple strong 5/10k/HM guys (and a WC xc 9th placer) then it speaks volume about at least a 26.50 capacity for the Norwegian. But can we be certain of that in a slow 7.8k race, and has Jakob changed his base training / added some longer tempos? 26.50 is nevertheless not good enough, but maybe his on to something..?
PS. When i call Jakob strange I clearly mean that positively. He has brought huge joy to a lot of us…
I don´t know if there is anything "strange" with Jakob other than he has been training with big discipline and motivation from a very young age.
I. Worlds U20 boys 5000m 2028:
The Kenyans Zakayo and Waithaka and the Etiophians Barega and Haile Bekele ran away from the field early when Jakob was sitting a little bit back. As soon Jakob saw they were gapped he started the chase and after a while he came up to the front group. I don´t know how you can consider this a weakness. I think he showed great strenght by running up alone. I will, however, grant you that he prefers to go out relatively conservatively but does it matter as long as he is in the front group in the finish?
II. Struggling with the opening pace in the 1500m. Oh, yeah the 17 years old competing against the best in the world in the 1500m preferred to go out cautiously (fore example in the Bowerman mile and Monaco 1500m in 2018 where he was in the back of the field the first laps BUT ended of close to the front; 4th in both races).
III. So what the heck is the problem (with his 5000m ability):
There is no problem (apart from in your head). He is the dominant 5000m runner and when he finds the time to race a fast 5000m he will also prove that he is with margin the fastest.
IV. The DL Florence 2021 5000m:
"You know the the 5000m can be hellish, especially if you are not adequately trained. But you thought Jakob was.."?!
What are talking about? A gap opened up in the field ahead of Haile Bekele. As soon as Jakob saw it he started the chase and at about 3.400m he caught the front group. As in the U20 5000m race he showed great strange by running up alone to a front group who was running 61 sec laps WHICH CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED A COMFORTABLE PACE..
V. You wonder if Jakob´s excellence in the 1500m to 3000m RUINS his 5000m (and 10k/ HM)?!
So you think his 5000m looks RUINED. He has won easily all 5000m races (not counting rounds) since 2019 (where he was just turned 19) and you wonder about his 5000m ability.
VI. Comparison to sprinters. Mentioning Bolts lack of achievements in the 400m is a bad example. You are apparently not aware that Bolt started as a 200/400m man. He ran 45.35 in the 400m at the age of 16 which gave a fifth place on the U18 all time 400m list at the time. He ran 48.28 at age 14. But he stopped running the 400m in his later teens and started to run the 100m at age 20.
If you want to compare Jakob to Bolt you can compare Jakob´s 800m to Bolt´s 400m. Jakob ran some world class 800m races when he was 14-16 but afterwards (almost) stopped to race this distance.
VII. Not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m?!
We are still talking about the guy who has beaten easily all the fastests 5000m at this time, including the WR holder and no. 2 and 4 in the all time 5000m list?
5000m a NEIGHBOURING event to the 3000m. I would call it an event with a very close CORRELATION to the 5000m. I would say that a guy who has been doing systematic long distance training for more than 15 years and who is much faster in the 3000m than every former and current runner most likely also will be faster than them in the 5000m.
Jakob is more than 3 seconds faster than Komen in 3000m, almost 4 seconds faster than Aregawi, more than 6 sec faster than Kejelcha, 7.5 sec faster than Haile and almost 8.5 sec faster than K. Bekele. Don´t you think it is very likely he also beats them in a 5000m time trial?
You mention in your next post that you think Jakob can run 12:38. But do you consider a 4-5 th place in the 5000m all time list "not so good in the 5000m"? As you know I think he has been able to break the 5000m WR since 2023.
VIII. Euros XC 2024 again. When Jakob beats EASILY 26.49 and 26.53 runners in a 7.8 race doesn´t it indicate that he is substantially stronger aerobically than these runners and that he can run substantially faster in a 10k? And I don´t think the pace was easy for many other than Jakob and perhaps Crippa. When Jakob took over after about 15 minutes of running Ndikumwenayo and Almgren were already hanging a bit. Ndikumwenayo almost managed to close the gap but when Jakob really put down the hammer 700m out Ndikumwenayo was left in the dust as all the other remaining runners in the lead group.
I don´t know if there is anything "strange" with Jakob other than he has been training with big discipline and motivation from a very young age.
I. Worlds U20 boys 5000m 2028:
The Kenyans Zakayo and Waithaka and the Etiophians Barega and Haile Bekele ran away from the field early when Jakob was sitting a little bit back. As soon Jakob saw they were gapped he started the chase and after a while he came up to the front group. I don´t know how you can consider this a weakness. I think he showed great strenght by running up alone. I will, however, grant you that he prefers to go out relatively conservatively but does it matter as long as he is in the front group in the finish?
II. Struggling with the opening pace in the 1500m. Oh, yeah the 17 years old competing against the best in the world in the 1500m preferred to go out cautiously (fore example in the Bowerman mile and Monaco 1500m in 2018 where he was in the back of the field the first laps BUT ended of close to the front; 4th in both races).
III. So what the heck is the problem (with his 5000m ability):
There is no problem (apart from in your head). He is the dominant 5000m runner and when he finds the time to race a fast 5000m he will also prove that he is with margin the fastest.
IV. The DL Florence 2021 5000m:
"You know the the 5000m can be hellish, especially if you are not adequately trained. But you thought Jakob was.."?!
What are talking about? A gap opened up in the field ahead of Haile Bekele. As soon as Jakob saw it he started the chase and at about 3.400m he caught the front group. As in the U20 5000m race he showed great strange by running up alone to a front group who was running 61 sec laps WHICH CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED A COMFORTABLE PACE..
V. You wonder if Jakob´s excellence in the 1500m to 3000m RUINS his 5000m (and 10k/ HM)?!
So you think his 5000m looks RUINED. He has won easily all 5000m races (not counting rounds) since 2019 (where he was just turned 19) and you wonder about his 5000m ability.
VI. Comparison to sprinters. Mentioning Bolts lack of achievements in the 400m is a bad example. You are apparently not aware that Bolt started as a 200/400m man. He ran 45.35 in the 400m at the age of 16 which gave a fifth place on the U18 all time 400m list at the time. He ran 48.28 at age 14. But he stopped running the 400m in his later teens and started to run the 100m at age 20.
If you want to compare Jakob to Bolt you can compare Jakob´s 800m to Bolt´s 400m. Jakob ran some world class 800m races when he was 14-16 but afterwards (almost) stopped to race this distance.
VII. Not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m?!
We are still talking about the guy who has beaten easily all the fastests 5000m at this time, including the WR holder and no. 2 and 4 in the all time 5000m list?
5000m a NEIGHBOURING event to the 3000m. I would call it an event with a very close CORRELATION to the 5000m. I would say that a guy who has been doing systematic long distance training for more than 15 years and who is much faster in the 3000m than every former and current runner most likely also will be faster than them in the 5000m.
Jakob is more than 3 seconds faster than Komen in 3000m, almost 4 seconds faster than Aregawi, more than 6 sec faster than Kejelcha, 7.5 sec faster than Haile and almost 8.5 sec faster than K. Bekele. Don´t you think it is very likely he also beats them in a 5000m time trial?
You mention in your next post that you think Jakob can run 12:38. But do you consider a 4-5 th place in the 5000m all time list "not so good in the 5000m"? As you know I think he has been able to break the 5000m WR since 2023.
VIII. Euros XC 2024 again. When Jakob beats EASILY 26.49 and 26.53 runners in a 7.8 race doesn´t it indicate that he is substantially stronger aerobically than these runners and that he can run substantially faster in a 10k? And I don´t think the pace was easy for many other than Jakob and perhaps Crippa. When Jakob took over after about 15 minutes of running Ndikumwenayo and Almgren were already hanging a bit. Ndikumwenayo almost managed to close the gap but when Jakob really put down the hammer 700m out Ndikumwenayo was left in the dust as all the other remaining runners in the lead group.
Firstly: I like Jakob very much as a runner and an interesting human being, but first and foremost I am really excited about the totality of his (long time) training project towards becoming as good as possible, not only in depth but also in range. And based on your sayings I think we both share a hope of success for Jakob -because we believe in his project, and want to see it fulfilled…
I said I have noticed a lot of strange sides with Jakob’s sayings and doings, but in an interesting and positive way: His first HM was a really strange experience, but not the first one; his range her goes from waving to the crowd midways, drinking stops in a WC 5000m final, crawling over the finish line semi unconscious (“Stoltzekleiven”), hitting a wall in the hilly u20 WC xc, diving over the finish line, miscalculating his opening pace totally in an OG final, claiming he would try to beat 10 WR’s (including the marathon) despite never running longer than 20k slow in training, pretty much claiming in an interview (very young) that Cram doesn’t know a thing about the correct 1500m training for a guy like him, the already mentioned slow openings in the 1500m and gaps in the 5000m, front running a mile with jet lag (3.43.73) and a 7.23 only 24 hours later, running champs while being sick, running a 5000m in the Norwegian champs 14 hours after an all out 1500m, running 4 events (+ heats) in the National champs as a 16 years old one or two days after setting a 800m pb in Belgium, and winning most of them+++… Fantastic -and I applaud all of this!
But Jakob’s boldness and many stunts and his outspokenness also open up for some afterthoughts for a overthinking worrisome guy like me. So I ask: Was Jakob’s HM only a very bad day for him? (he doesn’t say so, on the contrary, he said it went as expected). So what does this mean for his prospects for the 10k/HM if he goes on with the same basic training?
Why so long time before Jakob started to have normal openings in the 1500m? Why the gaps in the 5000m? Can the latter relate to his sayings about a hard event (for him)? Is there a issue with the training (just like with Nordås?). Has Jakob started longer tempo runs in his training after the failure in Copenhagen? Is training for the 5 and 10k a threat to his 1500m ?
I think Jakob has extraordinary good control on his 1500 to 3000m training (his threshold variant seems very suited here), and maybe also 5000m training. But the latter is not so clear -Jakob hasn’t impressed in the 5000m races (well, he has of course impressed most of you guys, but not me and some others). He has only, IMO, done what one can expect from a 3.26.73/7.17 hot weather athlete -he has crushed very weak 5000m champs fields..!
”Jakob has toyed with 12.36 Gebrhiwet ++” -yes he has. And with Cheptegei. And also with all the other worlds best current 5000m runners, except Kiplimo, who he probably also would have toyed with based on the Ugandan’s poorly 7 placing in the OG 10000m… So what!?
Gebrhiwet was also toyed with by 13.02 pb guy Kwemoi, and a leggy Fisher, and Lobalu -these three had an even larger gap to close to the Ethiopian than Jakob, but they did it and crushed him on the home straight. And Cheptegei in WC 2022 -yes, Jakob toyed with him (because he was injured), but so did 7 others (the bronze guy had never broken 13, nor had the fourth placer, and silver was won by 12.46 pb guy Krop -hardly a 12.35 runner…). And in 2023 12.45 pb man Katir toyed with everybody but Jakob, again not a 12.35 or 12.36 man -Katir couldn’t hang with the others in his pb run…
Conclusion: Jakob has run many impressive 1500-2 mile races. -I think there’s no doubt he has shown an immense potential there, and also delivered. But in the 5000m (and above) he hasn’t a single good race -not his fault, the opposition has been extremely weak, for a number of reasons. -It would have been enough with a Cheptegei or a Gebrhiwet or Aregawi or a Kejelcha in peak form in one of these races. But they clearly weren’t, because they weren’t only beaten by Jakob in those races, but also by obviously weaker athletes. And we know they had form reducing issues. So we are let to speculate: Could Jakob have gone with Cheptegei if his 12.35 had been in Silesia (instead of the 3000m) 2024? Or a fully recovered Jakob beaten Gebrhiwet and Kejelcha and Kiplimo on Bislett, or would he struggled to break 12.42..?
The Bolt analogy is valid. -I made it also because I know that Bolt started out as a very good 400m runner in his teens. -A good analogy to Jakob’s very good 5000meters in his teens. And notice: I’m not saying that Bolt couldn’t have done a very fast 400m as an adult, on the contrary! -I am saying that Bolt probably didn’t do a take on the WR because he didn’t see him breaking it despite being #1 in the neighbouring 200m… And likewise: Of course Jakob can run a very fast 5000m based on the 7.17. But we don’t know if this means sub 12.42, or sub 12.40 or sub 12.35 or sub 12.30. And we know that a very fast 3000m runner (El Guerrouj) who ran 7.23 flat (probably with some un released capacity) never was near the 5000m WR….
Saying all this I really think Jakob deserves a loyal poster like you. -Not that you are a fanatic, because you aren’t, but because you feel a loyalty to a training you think are good in so many ways. And you may have a point -Jakob has come a tremendous long way. But I also think we need Armstronglivs’ voice, and my own, more confused… I am writing these last sentences also because I know I will achieve a bunch of downvotes anyway, here on a thread with so many over enthusiastic Jakob fans…
I don’t know what to make of Jakob -he seems like a really really strange dude (also running wise); somewhat like Narve Gilje Nordås, but of course not that strange. But of course it could be me, and not them…
Jakob has always been really good in the 5000m, both as a child and a teenager (f.x in his Nationals 13.35 win as a 16 years old, where he clearly could have run faster). -That’s a good thing, obviously. But a year later Jakob talked about how hard and taxing he felt this distance is, and it wasn’t only the talking -in WC u20 2018 he had to give a huge gap quite early, despite eventually closing it, and as a contender for the win beat both Barega and Kiplimo. But at the same time he also started struggle (this went on for years) with the opening pace in the 1500m, so much that one would think he was really slow in a 800m. But he wasn’t -1.49 low in a wide run race as a 16 years old and 1.46.44 as 19. (And probably faster now). And curious enough Nordås was very much the same, only even more extremely…
So what the heck is the problem? Is it the body type, the training, something mental or just a strategy..?
In Jakob’s break through 5000m race (Florence 2021) he again had to give a significant gap (around the 3k mark, I believe), despite a comfortable pace. And then he won easily, in a European record…
Don’t get me wrong -I have myself raced the 800/1500/3000/5000m, and know that the latter can be hellish, especially if one isn’t adequately trained. But I thought Jakob was..?
I think Jakob “easily” can break the mile WR, and maybe also the 1500m, and also better his 3000 meter. And I think he can crush his opponents in a global 1500m champs. But I wonder if his excellenc here is part of the problem -that it ruins his 5000m/10k/HM…?
Compare Jakob to the two last world record holders in the 400m -decent, but not very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, WR in the 400m. And then throw in Bolt -very good in the 100m, very good in the 200m, no WR in the 400m..! (But of course decent in the latter as a neighbouring event to the 200m, but not very good). And Jakob: Very good in the 1500m, very / extremely good in the 3000m, not so good in the 5000m, but decent, as a neighbouring event to the 3000m (as his global wins against not peaked rivals shows).
Maybe Jakob’s 3000m makes him worse and without talent in the 5000m and above. Or the training. But there’s no physical law here; Hassan and Assefa and others have showed that excellence throughout range is possible …
I don’t know if I believe in my reasoning above. But it’s an alternative I can’t forget…
So to the Euros xc 2024. -Yes, it was the best argument against my reasoning above I know of for now, together with Almgren’s words about how good Jakob is in the endurance training. And when Jakob so easily beats multiple strong 5/10k/HM guys (and a WC xc 9th placer) then it speaks volume about at least a 26.50 capacity for the Norwegian. But can we be certain of that in a slow 7.8k race, and has Jakob changed his base training / added some longer tempos? 26.50 is nevertheless not good enough, but maybe his on to something..?
PS. When i call Jakob strange I clearly mean that positively. He has brought huge joy to a lot of us…
How do you know he had to give up a gap, and struggles with the start?
All this talk about DT+hills and this guy is doing two of the most traditional track sessions OF ALL TIMES!!!
You guys really havent looked into the double treshold way of training? Neither Almgren nor Jakob deviates from that philosophy.
Hills is mostly during fall-spring. Then its track workouts. And, track workouts happen occasionally during those months as well.
Also, Jakob basically never does anything complicated or "innovating" in terms of workouts. Its all simple stuff.
15x400m is just one of the treshold workouts with fewer reps and higher intensity, same with the 1k workout. Nothing unusual. Both athletes do DT all year. But not hills.
Nope. He said 1k reps was 5.4mmol and I'm guessing 400s were a bit higher than that.
The point is that DT+hills is their base training and they almost never talk about what they do in-season. And what they do in-season is a lot more traditional.
Firstly: I like Jakob very much as a runner and an interesting human being, but first and foremost I am really excited about the totality of his (long time) training project towards becoming as good as possible, not only in depth but also in range. And based on your sayings I think we both share a hope of success for Jakob -because we believe in his project, and want to see it fulfilled…
I said I have noticed a lot of strange sides with Jakob’s sayings and doings, but in an interesting and positive way: His first HM was a really strange experience, but not the first one; his range her goes from waving to the crowd midways, drinking stops in a WC 5000m final, crawling over the finish line semi unconscious (“Stoltzekleiven”), hitting a wall in the hilly u20 WC xc, diving over the finish line, miscalculating his opening pace totally in an OG final, claiming he would try to beat 10 WR’s (including the marathon) despite never running longer than 20k slow in training, pretty much claiming in an interview (very young) that Cram doesn’t know a thing about the correct 1500m training for a guy like him, the already mentioned slow openings in the 1500m and gaps in the 5000m, front running a mile with jet lag (3.43.73) and a 7.23 only 24 hours later, running champs while being sick, running a 5000m in the Norwegian champs 14 hours after an all out 1500m, running 4 events (+ heats) in the National champs as a 16 years old one or two days after setting a 800m pb in Belgium, and winning most of them+++… Fantastic -and I applaud all of this!
But Jakob’s boldness and many stunts and his outspokenness also open up for some afterthoughts for a overthinking worrisome guy like me. So I ask: Was Jakob’s HM only a very bad day for him? (he doesn’t say so, on the contrary, he said it went as expected). So what does this mean for his prospects for the 10k/HM if he goes on with the same basic training?
Why so long time before Jakob started to have normal openings in the 1500m? Why the gaps in the 5000m? Can the latter relate to his sayings about a hard event (for him)? Is there a issue with the training (just like with Nordås?). Has Jakob started longer tempo runs in his training after the failure in Copenhagen? Is training for the 5 and 10k a threat to his 1500m ?
I think Jakob has extraordinary good control on his 1500 to 3000m training (his threshold variant seems very suited here), and maybe also 5000m training. But the latter is not so clear -Jakob hasn’t impressed in the 5000m races (well, he has of course impressed most of you guys, but not me and some others). He has only, IMO, done what one can expect from a 3.26.73/7.17 hot weather athlete -he has crushed very weak 5000m champs fields..!
”Jakob has toyed with 12.36 Gebrhiwet ++” -yes he has. And with Cheptegei. And also with all the other worlds best current 5000m runners, except Kiplimo, who he probably also would have toyed with based on the Ugandan’s poorly 7 placing in the OG 10000m… So what!?
Gebrhiwet was also toyed with by 13.02 pb guy Kwemoi, and a leggy Fisher, and Lobalu -these three had an even larger gap to close to the Ethiopian than Jakob, but they did it and crushed him on the home straight. And Cheptegei in WC 2022 -yes, Jakob toyed with him (because he was injured), but so did 7 others (the bronze guy had never broken 13, nor had the fourth placer, and silver was won by 12.46 pb guy Krop -hardly a 12.35 runner…). And in 2023 12.45 pb man Katir toyed with everybody but Jakob, again not a 12.35 or 12.36 man -Katir couldn’t hang with the others in his pb run…
Conclusion: Jakob has run many impressive 1500-2 mile races. -I think there’s no doubt he has shown an immense potential there, and also delivered. But in the 5000m (and above) he hasn’t a single good race -not his fault, the opposition has been extremely weak, for a number of reasons. -It would have been enough with a Cheptegei or a Gebrhiwet or Aregawi or a Kejelcha in peak form in one of these races. But they clearly weren’t, because they weren’t only beaten by Jakob in those races, but also by obviously weaker athletes. And we know they had form reducing issues. So we are let to speculate: Could Jakob have gone with Cheptegei if his 12.35 had been in Silesia (instead of the 3000m) 2024? Or a fully recovered Jakob beaten Gebrhiwet and Kejelcha and Kiplimo on Bislett, or would he struggled to break 12.42..?
The Bolt analogy is valid. -I made it also because I know that Bolt started out as a very good 400m runner in his teens. -A good analogy to Jakob’s very good 5000meters in his teens. And notice: I’m not saying that Bolt couldn’t have done a very fast 400m as an adult, on the contrary! -I am saying that Bolt probably didn’t do a take on the WR because he didn’t see him breaking it despite being #1 in the neighbouring 200m… And likewise: Of course Jakob can run a very fast 5000m based on the 7.17. But we don’t know if this means sub 12.42, or sub 12.40 or sub 12.35 or sub 12.30. And we know that a very fast 3000m runner (El Guerrouj) who ran 7.23 flat (probably with some un released capacity) never was near the 5000m WR….
Saying all this I really think Jakob deserves a loyal poster like you. -Not that you are a fanatic, because you aren’t, but because you feel a loyalty to a training you think are good in so many ways. And you may have a point -Jakob has come a tremendous long way. But I also think we need Armstronglivs’ voice, and my own, more confused… I am writing these last sentences also because I know I will achieve a bunch of downvotes anyway, here on a thread with so many over enthusiastic Jakob fans…
You seem to not understand that there is such a thing as tactical running, which in turn makes tou draw the wrong conclusions of the 5000 races and him letting everyone get a head start in certain 1500 races. The same lack of understanding makes you think that a 400m is "neighbouring" to a 100/200m runner (imagine not going for a 400m wr despite having the 200m wr!) and makes you expect more from a HM run hours after a 1500m goal event at the end of the season.
The reason why I am so hard on you is that you completely disregard Objectiveosberver when he say the same in kinder words. Saying that a double world champion and olympic champion never has had an impressive race says the most. I guess your conclusion that Jakob I. lacked training and was at the verge of breaking the race when he got himself something to drink in that WR final. When you cant see the tactical elements, and doesn't understand a display of strength if it isn't running with a big gap on everyone there is no wonder that you come to the conclusions you do.
You seem to not understand that there is such a thing as tactical running, which in turn makes tou draw the wrong conclusions of the 5000 races and him letting everyone get a head start in certain 1500 races. The same lack of understanding makes you think that a 400m is "neighbouring" to a 100/200m runner (imagine not going for a 400m wr despite having the 200m wr!) and makes you expect more from a HM run hours after a 1500m goal event at the end of the season.
The reason why I am so hard on you is that you completely disregard Objectiveosberver when he say the same in kinder words. Saying that a double world champion and olympic champion never has had an impressive race says the most. I guess your conclusion that Jakob I. lacked training and was at the verge of breaking the race when he got himself something to drink in that WR final. When you cant see the tactical elements, and doesn't understand a display of strength if it isn't running with a big gap on everyone there is no wonder that you come to the conclusions you do.
Of course I know that there’s a thing called tactical running -when Jakob gave a gap in the WC u20 and then closed it and was so strong in the finish, of course my thoughts were that it was tactics. And the same with his slow starts and so on…(I mean his slow starts years back, not the funny ones in recent heats that so obviously is tactics)… But I am trying to go a little under the surface, unlike some…
And I’m puzzled with quite a few aspects of Jakob’s doings and sayings. Therefore I look for new patterns, and ask some questions since Jakob clearly isn’t in good control of everything he does. And neither gives complete explanations. And when he runs a really really bad 27.27 it is interesting to me to see this in the light of his sayings about 5000m and above as specially hard, and ask if it is something with the training. And also stress the puzzling likeness with Nordås… And don’t get to hung up in my “not impressive” and so on -those are relative terms.
I don’t get what you are saying about my Bolt example. My point is that, although Michael Johnson could set WR in the 200m and the neighbouring 400m Bolt maybe couldn’t. The same with Jakob -a WR in the 3000m doesn’t automatically mean a WR in the neighbouring 5000m event (as many seem to think) -it depends on the athlete…
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
You guys really havent looked into the double treshold way of training? Neither Almgren nor Jakob deviates from that philosophy.
Hills is mostly during fall-spring. Then its track workouts. And, track workouts happen occasionally during those months as well.
Also, Jakob basically never does anything complicated or "innovating" in terms of workouts. Its all simple stuff.
15x400m is just one of the treshold workouts with fewer reps and higher intensity, same with the 1k workout. Nothing unusual. Both athletes do DT all year. But not hills.
Pretty sure Jakob doesn’t do DT but switches to specificity and easy volume in competition season.
You mean double treshold with DT right? Just to make sure, cause he absolutely do double treshold all year.
Of course I know that there’s a thing called tactical running -when Jakob gave a gap in the WC u20 and then closed it and was so strong in the finish, of course my thoughts were that it was tactics. And the same with his slow starts and so on…(I mean his slow starts years back, not the funny ones in recent heats that so obviously is tactics)… But I am trying to go a little under the surface, unlike some…
And I’m puzzled with quite a few aspects of Jakob’s doings and sayings. Therefore I look for new patterns, and ask some questions since Jakob clearly isn’t in good control of everything he does. And neither gives complete explanations. And when he runs a really really bad 27.27 it is interesting to me to see this in the light of his sayings about 5000m and above as specially hard, and ask if it is something with the training. And also stress the puzzling likeness with Nordås… And don’t get to hung up in my “not impressive” and so on -those are relative terms.
I don’t get what you are saying about my Bolt example. My point is that, although Michael Johnson could set WR in the 200m and the neighbouring 400m Bolt maybe couldn’t. The same with Jakob -a WR in the 3000m doesn’t automatically mean a WR in the neighbouring 5000m event (as many seem to think) -it depends on the athlete…
And when he runs a really really bad 27.27 it is interesting to me to see this in the light of his sayings about 5000m and above as specially hard, and ask if it is something with the training.
1. 27.27 was just what the HM leaders had for the first 10k. This was not a 10k race or attempt. 2. It was at the end of a 1500m season, with a short base-phase. In that regard you could say it is something with his training. No one should seriously re-evaluate their training based on a meet that is far outside top 10 priority that season.
3. And yet it was faster than the NR. I have no idea why you call it really really bad. A 2:05 marathon have been run by a norwegian with a lesser 10k PR than that.
And also stress the puzzling likeness with Nordås…
? Do you think there is some conspiracy here?
I don’t get what you are saying about my Bolt example. My point is that, although Michael Johnson could set WR in the 200m and the neighbouring 400m Bolt maybe couldn’t. The same with Jakob -a WR in the 3000m doesn’t automatically mean a WR in the neighbouring 5000m event (as many seem to think) -it depends on the athlete…
Johnson never went below 10 in the 100m. 100m and 200m is largely anaerobic, 400m is more aerobic. The 400m is twice as long as the 200m, 4 times as long as the 100m, yet the time spent running (the wr) is 4.5 times that of the 100m, 2.25 times that of the 200m. Look at what that means in speed.
The 5000 is 1.67 times as long as the 3000, and comparing the world records we find that the 5000 wr have a duration of 1.73 as the 3000. They use the same energy system.
What I am saying is that it is largely irrelevant to draw conclusions about the 3000 to the 5000 by looking at whether Bolt ran a WR in the 400m.
And I think no one thinks or have said that a 3000m WR is an automatic WR in 5000m. But most seem to understand that it is a good indication.
I don't really understand why you brush off a man as Almgren, which has a lot of data points and experience to draw his conclusions on and pretend like you know better, then brush off Jakobs actual performance in the 3000, in the 5000 and brush off his XC results. If you think it is more relevant that Bolt doesn't have a WR in the 400 or what off hand remarks Ingebrigtsen had about distances over 5000m you do you, but it sure is puzzling.
1. 27.27 was just what the HM leaders had for the first 10k. This was not a 10k race or attempt. 2. It was at the end of a 1500m season, with a short base-phase. In that regard you could say it is something with his training. No one should seriously re-evaluate their training based on a meet that is far outside top 10 priority that season.
3. And yet it was faster than the NR. I have no idea why you call it really really bad. A 2:05 marathon have been run by a norwegian with a lesser 10k PR than that.
? Do you think there is some conspiracy here?
Johnson never went below 10 in the 100m. 100m and 200m is largely anaerobic, 400m is more aerobic. The 400m is twice as long as the 200m, 4 times as long as the 100m, yet the time spent running (the wr) is 4.5 times that of the 100m, 2.25 times that of the 200m. Look at what that means in speed.
The 5000 is 1.67 times as long as the 3000, and comparing the world records we find that the 5000 wr have a duration of 1.73 as the 3000. They use the same energy system.
What I am saying is that it is largely irrelevant to draw conclusions about the 3000 to the 5000 by looking at whether Bolt ran a WR in the 400m.
And I think no one thinks or have said that a 3000m WR is an automatic WR in 5000m. But most seem to understand that it is a good indication.
I don't really understand why you brush off a man as Almgren, which has a lot of data points and experience to draw his conclusions on and pretend like you know better, then brush off Jakobs actual performance in the 3000, in the 5000 and brush off his XC results. If you think it is more relevant that Bolt doesn't have a WR in the 400 or what off hand remarks Ingebrigtsen had about distances over 5000m you do you, but it sure is puzzling.
I liked your post here, and think you raise some relevant questions.
But let me first say this: I think Jakob has very good insight in his core training, and also in running / racing strategy, and that I don’t. And I also think Jakob has an intelligence and ability to be humble (that also comes from experience and his long time readiness for experimentation and putting himself in vulnerable situations; here he very much reminds me of Cheptegei). And I think he’s tough psychologically…
However -I think Jakob is narcissistic, but in a good way. (We all are on the spectrum, and it’s not a good thing to have too low narcissism). And I also think Jakob is edgy. (Meaning confrontational, not bad mode). -Again a good thing. (Especially in confrontations with the British, including Cram, about 800m speed, kicking abilities, front running, and training). But when Jakob is on thin ice -something he mostly isn’t - then this edginess (and cockiness and his over all “ideological” thinking -training wise) may make him extremely vulnerable, like in Copenhagen. This is not to be confused with his screwing up in the last OG 1500m -I think he was in an extremely demanding situation, and that he learnt a lot, and will bounce back. And in my eyes it was an unimportant clown race anyway, and nothing important for his real legacy… (As his OG 5000m also was -haven’t seen a worse washed field for a long time -hope he sells or throws away or hide this gold medal on the bottom of his dirty laundry basket. -A club race against a rested Nordås would have been way more demanding for Jakob than this hyped race).
What I am saying is this: Jakob seems to be ideologically and narcissistic/ cocky when confronted with things he knows little about, like marathon, HM, 10000m. But maybe I’m wrong -it may be his bs sayings (about being better the longer distances pretty much only based on his regular double threshold) more than something he really means when he gives the matter properly attention… But it is a problem that Jakob never has run a good HM (nor long tempos, if not after Copenhagen), or a good 10k, nor a good 5000m, in his adult career… But I cross my fingers for a long term change here, and that Jakob has some distance talent we haven’t seen yet. But in the 5000m he may already be there -we just don’t know. It’s not that no good races means bad races -he just hasn’t been challenged by good runners… (Maybe an exception for Nordås in the Nationals).
So to your post: 1. Yes, his Copenhagen 10k was only a split time. So he might have run a handful of seconds faster. But he had an unusual draft the whole way that a little condescending can be called parasitic… The important thing here, is if he had a really really off day. If so, we can look away from this 10k/HM. But Jakob didn’t say that, so it looks really really bad…
2. Jakob doesn’t thin down his training in the track seasons like others. He even had sayings about doing this even less in 2024 (because of his recovery process).
3. To be fair to Moen you have to stress his 10000m record, and not 10k. And that is 3 sec faster than Jakob’s split. And Moen was never good in the 10000m -he would not only been lapped by Cheptegei, but probably also by a bunch of other Africans.. But yes, Moen was/is a good HM/ marathon runner. But you have to regard context and running profile here in a comparison with Jakob -Sondre (Moen) would never ever be anywhere near a sub 3.40 in the 1500m, so the comparison is really off!
Conspiracy Jakob/Nordås? Well, only that they have a background in the same training philosophy, (and even some of the strategies) and also seem to share some physiologically traits…
I don’t brush of Almgren. Him being a Swede makes me regard him as half Norwegian, so I root for him. And I think he is a nice and honest person, and I think his sayings about his and Jakob ’s training is correct. But I also think Jakob’s strength wis a wis Almgren in training overshadows the training they probably haven’t done together -HM specific things….
I don’t think we know enough about the 3000m/5000m/10000m/HM connection -for some athletes it will be a near convert-ion, for others maybe not. -I’m not the one to say that El Guerrouj or Aouita couldn’t run sub 12.40 or splendid in the HM and marathon with proper training. But maybe Bolt’s fast 100m was a problem for him in the 400m, whereas Johnson’s slow one wasn’t -hard to know. And maybe some of Jakob’s strengths (and training) in the shorter distances make problems in the distance events. Or maybe he will solve these. Assefa and Hassan’s range performances bring hope…
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
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