None of his workouts suggest that he's even in sub-4:10 or 14:40 shape. Only in a bizarro world in which you've never interacted with an elite male track athlete would you think that running 12x400 in 64/5 or 10x600 in 1:42 (even in Boulder) would translate into sub-4 shape. Maybe the goal is just to stir the pot, but he could just say I'm going to show up to States in 14:30 sea-level 5k shape. That puts him on the same straightaway as current-form Hawks and Walmsley and maybe a bit ahead of Jornet and Farvard. Instead, for someone who is all about the science, he comes across as an idiot.
David Roche is the ultimate uber-positive magical thinking type person, so huge grain of salt with what he says . Having said that, 64/5 for 12x400 is plenty fast for a 14:40 5k, which is much softer than a 4:10 mile, so confusing post overall.
Edit: tell us what the 400 repeat times should be for a 14:40 if you disagree
Buzz, respect all you've accomplished but this is silly. If I was running 3 sets of 4x400, 200 jog between reps, 400 jog between sets at Fairview or Niwot, and I couldn't average 60s I would never believe I could run sub-4 at sea level, let alone altitude. Nothing about Roche's training indicates sub-4 mile fitness in Leadville, Boulder or Boston.
David Roche is the ultimate uber-positive magical thinking type person, so huge grain of salt with what he says . Having said that, 64/5 for 12x400 is plenty fast for a 14:40 5k, which is much softer than a 4:10 mile, so confusing post overall.
Edit: tell us what the 400 repeat times should be for a 14:40 if you disagree
Buzz, respect all you've accomplished but this is silly. If I was running 3 sets of 4x400, 200 jog between reps, 400 jog between sets at Fairview or Niwot, and I couldn't average 60s I would never believe I could run sub-4 at sea level, let alone altitude. Nothing about Roche's training indicates sub-4 mile fitness in Leadville, Boulder or Boston.
I think it's safe to say those of us who have run as fast and/or coached as fast athletes recognize that 400m workouts don't give you a clue if you can run a sub-4:00/mile or a 14:00 5000m. Come out to an NXN Top 5 program that can run 12 x 300m in 37-38 and find that not a single one can run sub-4:10. Speed is deceptive and 400s at altitude are aided.
What would make me believe Roche could run sub-4:00? A 3:42 1500m time trial at sea level.
First of all I'm not Buzz Burrell in case you thought that. Second, I'm arguing with you assertion that his 400 workout wasn't even good for a 14:40 5k.
First of all I'm not Buzz Burrell in case you thought that. Second, I'm arguing with you assertion that his 400 workout wasn't even good for a 14:40 5k.
I don't think that workout is indicative of 14:40 at altitude, no. 62s probably to run 14:40 in Boulder.
None of his workouts suggest that he's even in sub-4:10 or 14:40 shape. Only in a bizarro world in which you've never interacted with an elite male track athlete would you think that running 12x400 in 64/5 or 10x600 in 1:42 (even in Boulder) would translate into sub-4 shape. Maybe the goal is just to stir the pot, but he could just say I'm going to show up to States in 14:30 sea-level 5k shape. That puts him on the same straightaway as current-form Hawks and Walmsley and maybe a bit ahead of Jornet and Farvard. Instead, for someone who is all about the science, he comes across as an idiot.
It is almost like the posters here who think they can jog and win an ultra like Western States. Ultra running is pretty easy. So is running a sub 4 mile.
None of his workouts suggest that he's even in sub-4:10 or 14:40 shape. Only in a bizarro world in which you've never interacted with an elite male track athlete would you think that running 12x400 in 64/5 or 10x600 in 1:42 (even in Boulder) would translate into sub-4 shape. Maybe the goal is just to stir the pot, but he could just say I'm going to show up to States in 14:30 sea-level 5k shape. That puts him on the same straightaway as current-form Hawks and Walmsley and maybe a bit ahead of Jornet and Farvard. Instead, for someone who is all about the science, he comes across as an idiot.
I believe the only two Americans to run sub 4 at above 5000 ft are Joe Klecker & Nico Young. Safe to say David Roche is not in that category on the track.
None of his workouts suggest that he's even in sub-4:10 or 14:40 shape. Only in a bizarro world in which you've never interacted with an elite male track athlete would you think that running 12x400 in 64/5 or 10x600 in 1:42 (even in Boulder) would translate into sub-4 shape. Maybe the goal is just to stir the pot, but he could just say I'm going to show up to States in 14:30 sea-level 5k shape. That puts him on the same straightaway as current-form Hawks and Walmsley and maybe a bit ahead of Jornet and Farvard. Instead, for someone who is all about the science, he comes across as an idiot.
I believe the only two Americans to run sub 4 at above 5000 ft are Joe Klecker & Nico Young. Safe to say David Roche is not in that category on the track.
Yeah but he’s full of ENERGY!!! He rocks! Amaze balls! Feckin Awesome Sauce!
A few years ago he bragged on social media about his PR "1:10" half marathon, which was actually a 1:13 at altitude. It's a good time for sure, but he's nowhere near a sub 4 miler. You have to read between the lines and understand that he's probably (maybe) doing his strides (15-30 seconds) at sub 4 pace.
He probably can't even sub 4:30 in a flat out mile.
He also likes to talk about, like, BUTT STUFF! with his wife on his podcast because that’s like, super funny and normal. Also, like, he is gonna GOLIATH some runs this year because that’s just what you do when you’re awesome sauce. AMAZEBALLS!
He also likes to talk about, like, BUTT STUFF! with his wife on his podcast because that’s like, super funny and normal. Also, like, he is gonna GOLIATH some runs this year because that’s just what you do when you’re awesome sauce. AMAZEBALLS!
Sign up for a qualifier and win westerns states then. See if you can beat Jim, Hayden, Kilian and David. I doubt your success though. If it was so easy why wouldn’t more sub elite runners join ultra running? There’s more money as an elite ultra runner than there is for a middling track athlete
this is why people hate ultra runners. Its a different sport from track or even road running and it needs to be treated as such. They are not elite in the events that award olympic medals, and if they were, they'd be at the olympics instead of trudging away in the forest all day. The egos on display are out of control.
I ultimately ask the question: what would you rather they be doing?
1) heroin additiction
2) religious fanaticism
3) sexual deviance & depravity
4) political extremist stunts
If this susceptible group wants to run a bunch of junk miles and call it a sport, so be it. I do lose my cool a bit when people call themselves running influencers on social media and yet never ran cross country or track though. Still, I'd rather that than any of the above. They arent hurting anybody no ,atter how delusional they sound.
A few years ago he bragged on social media about his PR "1:10" half marathon, which was actually a 1:13 at altitude. It's a good time for sure, but he's nowhere near a sub 4 miler. You have to read between the lines and understand that he's probably (maybe) doing his strides (15-30 seconds) at sub 4 pace.
He probably can't even sub 4:30 in a flat out mile.
He's actually a really good athlete. I bet he can run 4:15-20 at sea level. sub 4 is a joke.
this is why people hate ultra runners. Its a different sport from track or even road running and it needs to be treated as such. They are not elite in the events that award olympic medals, and if they were, they'd be at the olympics instead of trudging away in the forest all day. The egos on display are out of control.
I ultimately ask the question: what would you rather they be doing?
1) heroin additiction
2) religious fanaticism
3) sexual deviance & depravity
4) political extremist stunts
If this susceptible group wants to run a bunch of junk miles and call it a sport, so be it. I do lose my cool a bit when people call themselves running influencers on social media and yet never ran cross country or track though. Still, I'd rather that than any of the above. They arent hurting anybody no ,atter how delusional they sound.
Sign up for a qualifier and win westerns states then. See if you can beat Jim, Hayden, Kilian and David. I doubt your success though. If it was so easy why wouldn’t more sub elite runners join ultra running? There’s more money as an elite ultra runner than there is for a middling track athlete
I'd rather keep my $150k per year job and continue training for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. That's more than any trail jogger makes.
Elite ultra training takes too much time, and alone isn't enough to build a decent savings account.
The only way Roche makes good money is by scamming people into paying for his training program where he sends the same exact plan to everyone. I have too much integrity to scam people like that.
Sign up for a qualifier and win westerns states then. See if you can beat Jim, Hayden, Kilian and David. I doubt your success though. If it was so easy why wouldn’t more sub elite runners join ultra running? There’s more money as an elite ultra runner than there is for a middling track athlete
I'd rather keep my $150k per year job and continue training for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. That's more than any trail jogger makes.
Elite ultra training takes too much time, and alone isn't enough to build a decent savings account.
The only way Roche makes good money is by scamming people into paying for his training program where he sends the same exact plan to everyone. I have too much integrity to scam people like that.
Alright that isn’t the question. Jim W probably makes 200k a year. If it was so easy wouldn’t more do it? Wouldn’t there be a lot of people interested in living a life of a full time runner? Yet I don’t see other 214ish marathoners trying to be ultra runners.
Sign up for a qualifier and win westerns states then. See if you can beat Jim, Hayden, Kilian and David. I doubt your success though. If it was so easy why wouldn’t more sub elite runners join ultra running? There’s more money as an elite ultra runner than there is for a middling track athlete
I'd rather keep my $150k per year job and continue training for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. That's more than any trail jogger makes.
Elite ultra training takes too much time, and alone isn't enough to build a decent savings account.
The only way Roche makes good money is by scamming people into paying for his training program where he sends the same exact plan to everyone. I have too much integrity to scam people like that.
I agree with everything except that ultra training takes too much time. I think, only in the US there are "ultra running pros". Everywhere else people have jobs and other commitments. On average you can be a top ultrarunner with 60-80 miles per week with some longer peak weeks. They can race much more relaxed since their lives are not depending on the outcome of a race.
I'd rather keep my $150k per year job and continue training for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. That's more than any trail jogger makes.
Elite ultra training takes too much time, and alone isn't enough to build a decent savings account.
The only way Roche makes good money is by scamming people into paying for his training program where he sends the same exact plan to everyone. I have too much integrity to scam people like that.
Alright that isn’t the question. Jim W probably makes 200k a year. If it was so easy wouldn’t more do it? Wouldn’t there be a lot of people interested in living a life of a full time runner? Yet I don’t see other 214ish marathoners trying to be ultra runners.
Jim is an outlier in terms of his contract. With how fast college kids are these days, a 13:25 guy might struggle to get a contract as a pro track runner. That same 13:25 guy, if he dedicated himself to the trails, would likely be very competitive and win a lot of ultras. However, I also highly doubt that a brand would just give a 13:25 guy a $200k contract to go run trails. As to why more elite college distance runners or sub elite pro track and road athletes don’t do trails, to be quite frank, trails are still looked down upon by the track and road running community. That attitude is changing, for sure. But most track and road athletes would rather try to run faster on the track or roads than do ultras. There is way more prestige to having fast track and road PRs than to having success in the trails. A lot of college kids chase the allure of a sub-14 5k or sub-4 mile or OTQ in the marathon in their 20s and many hang em up after that.
Sign up for a qualifier and win westerns states then. See if you can beat Jim, Hayden, Kilian and David. I doubt your success though. If it was so easy why wouldn’t more sub elite runners join ultra running? There’s more money as an elite ultra runner than there is for a middling track athlete
I'd rather keep my $150k per year job and continue training for the Olympic Trials in the marathon. That's more than any trail jogger makes.
Elite ultra training takes too much time, and alone isn't enough to build a decent savings account.
The only way Roche makes good money is by scamming people into paying for his training program where he sends the same exact plan to everyone. I have too much integrity to scam people like that.
Given his 'personal coaching' pyramid scheme Roche probably brings in a good $150k-200k a year also! And he's a full time runner and a full time dad. So take that! He and his wife like to summer in Aspen.