Lots of good ideas, but to implement them, stop looking in terms of a single week micro-cycle. 2-3 week micro-cycles (even Walt McClure utilized that when coaching Prefontaine in HS in 1960's) as Dellinger outlined can incorporate many elements into a training program over an extended time-frame is better. The idea that you can get everything done in one seven day cycle is simply neither necessary or optimal and strikes me as being in too much of a hurry. Unfortunately it is how too many people construct their training programs.
BTW (more for a 2 miler) McClure had 6 week macro-cycles, with three two-week micro-cycles focusing on 800m, Mile and 2 mile events each cycle. There is research that indicates that 6 weeks is an appropriate training macro-cycle, before trying to increase a training stimulus to a next level. Daniels indicates that this is the time period to move from one VDot level to another.
1. A 49 split is pretty slow for someone with sub 1:50 ambitions.
I don't think Nico can run faster than 50 and he ran 1:47
Harry Houdini could escape a water filled locked box while wrapped up in chains. I don't expect to see a lot of people replicating the feat anytime soon.
I'm talking about the vast majority of 800m runners here. Plus, I'm almost 100% sure Nico could split sub 50 on a relay.
i've been getting told to drop the mileage a bit, and honestly high mileage has shot my legs a bit in the past. thank you for the input! also thanks for supporting the content!
given that i do go back to campus very soon, i probably can't change our whole training cycle of the program haha. but i will definitely look into this training philosophy for the summer block though! Thank you!
Yes he does. His been doing weekly long runs in the 12 mile range and just ran a 1:11 half. His strength is also not great if he’s only running off a low 1:52.
Says who? Wouldn't make sense for him to run 30+ mpw. The 1:11 half isn't all that competitive in the grand scheme of things. That's like a pro marathoner's training time.
Hey! I've taken you and others' advice and tweaked my training and would like to show the past week if you don't mind maybe providing some feedback on it.
Monday: 3mile easy run + 6x50m flys spiked up all out, full rest maybe 5-6mins(really started to feel turnover come into form)+1mile cooldown + lift + 4mile easy run later
Tuesday: 2mile warmup + 6x1k(90sec rest) + 4x200m(1minrest) +2mile cooldown. 1ks were 2:55 avg and 200s were 28,27,28,27(28s were into mad headwind lol windy workout overall)
Wednesday: 8.7 mile easy run
Thursday: 2.6mile warmup +6x150m with 5-10m running start(17.5, 17.4, 17.3, 17.7, 17.5, 17.3) +1.5mile cooldown. Note: Beginning acceleration wasn't all there for the 150s but middle portion turnover felt VERY good cycling.
Friday: 2mile warmup + (1200,800,400,200,100)90sec rest throughout + 2mile cooldown. 70sec/400m for 1200 and 800 reps. 66 for 400m, 27.2 for 200, 12 point for 100m
Saturday: 4mile run+4x200(30,30,29,26)+2mile cooldown <--Shakeout Day
Sunday: Race workouts. Practice meet pretty much with Morehouse.
- 4:29 for the mile jogging and closed the last 400m in 57low with 27 last 200m(next fastest time was 4:46 so not really a day to test fitness anyways?) - 2:00.00 for 800m, another chill effort, last 200m in 26 or 27 turnover was really there - 4x4 leg, didnt get it clocked but kept up with the A team guys so it couldn't have been slow
47-48miles in total this week. gonna hate to have those "race" times on my TFFRS profile haha but was told to focus on the last 25% of my races for today
Hey! I've taken you and others' advice and tweaked my training and would like to show the past week if you don't mind maybe providing some feedback on it.
Monday: 3mile easy run + 6x50m flys spiked up all out, full rest maybe 5-6mins(really started to feel turnover come into form)+1mile cooldown + lift + 4mile easy run later
Tuesday: 2mile warmup + 6x1k(90sec rest) + 4x200m(1minrest) +2mile cooldown. 1ks were 2:55 avg and 200s were 28,27,28,27(28s were into mad headwind lol windy workout overall)
Wednesday: 8.7 mile easy run
Thursday: 2.6mile warmup +6x150m with 5-10m running start(17.5, 17.4, 17.3, 17.7, 17.5, 17.3) +1.5mile cooldown. Note: Beginning acceleration wasn't all there for the 150s but middle portion turnover felt VERY good cycling.
Friday: 2mile warmup + (1200,800,400,200,100)90sec rest throughout + 2mile cooldown. 70sec/400m for 1200 and 800 reps. 66 for 400m, 27.2 for 200, 12 point for 100m
Saturday: 4mile run+4x200(30,30,29,26)+2mile cooldown <--Shakeout Day
Sunday: Race workouts. Practice meet pretty much with Morehouse.
- 4:29 for the mile jogging and closed the last 400m in 57low with 27 last 200m(next fastest time was 4:46 so not really a day to test fitness anyways?) - 2:00.00 for 800m, another chill effort, last 200m in 26 or 27 turnover was really there - 4x4 leg, didnt get it clocked but kept up with the A team guys so it couldn't have been slow
47-48miles in total this week. gonna hate to have those "race" times on my TFFRS profile haha but was told to focus on the last 25% of my races for today
Good stuff!
On your speed development days, I would seriously only warm up for 800m or so, do some dynamics, and then get into it.
Other than that, really solid stuff. Those 150s were really promising, running 17.Xs tells me you are a good candidate for being able to run 48-49 in the 400m, maybe only even after a month or so of this training.
The cool thing about doing actual speed training, is that you’ll see similar effects in your fitness as when you first transition to mile/Vo2 work after a long base phase of mostly easy and tempo miles. It’ll make a big difference relatively quickly and you’ll feel a difference week to week. I remember about a month into beginning this type of work, I had improved my fastest 200m from 24.x to 22.9, and 300m from 38.x to 34.x. If you respond to speed training as well as I did, I think it’s gonna make a huge difference for you. It’s like introducing 400m repeats to someone who just goes and runs 3-5 miles every day to improve their mile/5k times.
You basically did 4.5 workouts this week, that can be a lot even though you are running less mileage now, be careful to make sure you are recovering, some 800m runners are doing 4-5 workouts per week but that doesn’t work for many, so just make sure you are handling it well.
Update: DNF the 800m since I was pushed in the back 200m in and went rolling across the lanes... heat of 1:52 guys only ended up running 1:54 though so I didn't miss much. Split a 4:14 on the DMR the previous day. Next 800m race is next week and I think I am in REALLY good shape. Here is a workout I did Monday on our 200m flat.
4x(400,400,200), 1min between reps, 6min between sets
60,59,26 57,59, 28 58,58,27 59,59,27
Have still been incorporating some true speedwork as well. But since I've gotten back to campus, there hasn't been much V02 or threshold work from my coach. Wouldn't mind a little more. We've done 6x4mins once and I did a couple 10min tempos at the end of last week. Also, I've been holding around 40-45 miles a week.
Just noticed the OP is Robert Hooper (we're actually mutuals on Strava, lol). Not the first time he's posted on LR iirc
Dude's talented for sure, but I've seen him express frustration many times with the program over at TSU, so I'm guessing the satisfaction is just not there. Not just the coaching, needs better training partners too probably.
Don't feel qualified to give critiques to a fast 800m guy so I'll just let someone like CopperRunner chime in instead
Looks like i’ve been summoned haha.
I think you could benefit from a more speed based training block.
I think as distance runners, especially one as competitive as you OP, we adopt this mentality that a workout needs to kick your butt a bit for it to be a good workout. The problem is that if you think speed is your limiting factor, which it might be seeing that you are putting in the work that you are and not running sub 1:50 and sub 3:50, you need to be doing workouts where you are running fast for relatively short amounts of time, 50-150m and occasionally up to 200-250m with lots of rest in between.
A huge game changer for me was having a dedicated speed development day, and also taking more rest on the days I was doing fast 200s and 300s. The 800m is a sprint, especially when you are getting in the kind of territory where you are going to be opening races in around 53 seconds. That’s 2-3 seconds off of your open 400m ability and that’s going to kick your butt even if you are running 80 miles a week and can run 60 second quarters for days. Proper endurance training for the 800m is to help you utilize and maintain your speed, and it doesn’t build it. Sprinting for 1-2 minutes requires different fitness than running hard for 4-15 minutes.
If you are running at a strong 200/400m college, you should see if your coach is willing to let you train with those guys once per week on a day where they are working speed development or speed endurance rather than the technical stuff.
If not, here are a few workouts that should be in your program once per week:
-6x150m, full rest, running start
-6-8x50m flys, full rest
-8-10x 10-15 second moderate to steep hill sprints off of full rest
- 2-3 sets of 200m, 30 seconds rest, 200m with full rest between sets
- 300m time trial, 4x150m afterwards
Some of these workouts may feel unproductive to you, I promise they help a lot though. If you feel unfulfilled, double with a distance run or take a long cooldown afterwards. You want to be running these on fresh legs though, a hard 150m rep in spikes on fresh legs is a different stimulus than a 150m rep in trainers after an 8-10 mile run or a tempo workout.
Everything else looks really solid though. When I walked onto my team, I was taking the Nick Symmonds approach and running 60-70 miles per week which kept me at about 52 and 1:54-1:55 400/800m ability. When I cut down to 40-45 miles per week with faster workouts that’s what got me down to 48 relay 49 open and 1:49 ability.
The TLDR key takeaways here are that aerobic strength is important, but fresh legs for quality anaerobic/pure speed workouts are more important in the 800m, and that you should value quality reps over low recovery time. You don’t need to spend 30-60 minutes gasping for air every workout when your race is less than 2 minutes long. Of course these workouts are needed but not every single time.
CopperRunner- How would a race week look? With a Saturday race, both mid season and championship season?
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