It rained a quarter of an inch and about 40 meters was added to each lap of the course this year, which means overall it was 80 meters longer than last year.
The lack of upkeep is very noticeable. Lots of holes, dirt mounds, and uneven ground. It would be nice if the City of San Diego fixed it up.
unless you are one of the organizers or one of the HS coaches who worked it, i'm not buying it was longer. if you say it was longer where exactly was the 40m added?
be accurate with your description because I know the course well. i did not run the entire course yesterday so if you can tell me the exact location of the change i may believe you. and when i say exact i mean describe the exact spot not something like 'between 1- 1.5 miles'
Go run the 1 mile to 1.5 mile stretch today and you'll notice all 3 changes IF you actually know the course EXTREMELY well which very few people do.
First change was at the top most part of the course next to the road where the big Hoka blow up things were during the race. It was a longer path than normal next to the road then it made a hard left slightly backwards (then another hard right towards the top of the big hill) instead of the usual 45 degrees right turn directly towards the round kiddie park. Doubt you will notice the difference unless you watch several past years races while you are standing there. If you watch past races WHILE standing right there and you are REALLY trying to see the difference you will see it. If you are just like "hey it's grass and some red lines whatever" then you aren't trying very hard to notice the difference and you won't see it. It's easy for me to see the difference because I know the course extremely well.
Second change is easier to spot. About 20 or 30 meters from the bottom of the big hill the path usually goes to the left at a 45 degree angle down to the street before it makes another left turn. This year it went all the way straight down to the street then did a hard left turn.
Third change was easy to see yesterday but harder to see today. Foot Locker re-used the same exact path coming back across the road that they used going across the road right before the 1 mile mark. They did that because the City of San Diego blocked the normal come back across the road route with a log and Foot Locker didn't feel like moving that log so they made the return runners go around it back to slightly below the 1 mile mark.
However Foot Locker did move one log that was blocking the runners from going across the street to the mile mark. After the race Foot Locker moved that log back. It looks like the City of San Diego purposely put those logs there to completely block access to the dirt parking lot. You can't park there next to the mile marker like you used to be able to do for many years because it's totally blocked by logs.
It's harder to see the red lines now unless you look very closely because the red paint was on sand and spectators walked all over it.
Also I did ask several of the Foot Locker people why they changed the course to make it longer and all of them said it wasn't changed and it wasn't longer but they are all wrong. I asked each one of them to come with me and I would show them but none of them wanted to do that. It appears that the senior Foot Locker people didn't intend to lengthen the course (which is why they all incorrectly claimed it wasn't lengthened) so it was probably the low level park maintenance guys whose job it was to paint the red lines who screwed up.
Hopefully next year it goes back to the traditional course.
Folks Balboa Park sucks. Primarily gopher holes, roots sticking out, horrible footing. Then multiple street crossings. Parking isn't good. Meet management guys avg 70 years of age. Coronado Hotel is amazing. The course is not. Way past time for a change. Get to a golf course.
i took all the strava data i could find. it looks to me like it's around .03-.04 longer, which should be around a 9 second difference from last year. Generally coros pacer 3 garmin shows longer on the courses.
i took all the strava data i could find. it looks to me like it's around .03-.04 longer, which should be around a 9 second difference from last year. Generally coros pacer 3 garmin shows longer on the courses.
i took all the strava data i could find. it looks to me like it's around .03-.04 longer, which should be around a 9 second difference from last year. Generally coros pacer 3 garmin shows longer on the courses.
tullyrunner (speed ratings) has it at 15 seconds difference so let's say we are generious and make a 14 second difference. Here would be the boy results when compared to 2023
Hey buddy , those low level Park maintenance guys are not the ones that paint the lines on the course It's the volunteers that come out and work their a$$ off to get the course ready for the kids, they don't get paid they don't get anything they enjoy it I know I'm one of them.
unless you are one of the organizers or one of the HS coaches who worked it, i'm not buying it was longer. if you say it was longer where exactly was the 40m added?
be accurate with your description because I know the course well. i did not run the entire course yesterday so if you can tell me the exact location of the change i may believe you. and when i say exact i mean describe the exact spot not something like 'between 1- 1.5 miles'
Go run the 1 mile to 1.5 mile stretch today and you'll notice all 3 changes IF you actually know the course EXTREMELY well which very few people do.
First change was at the top most part of the course next to the road where the big Hoka blow up things were during the race. It was a longer path than normal next to the road then it made a hard left slightly backwards (then another hard right towards the top of the big hill) instead of the usual 45 degrees right turn directly towards the round kiddie park. Doubt you will notice the difference unless you watch several past years races while you are standing there. If you watch past races WHILE standing right there and you are REALLY trying to see the difference you will see it. If you are just like "hey it's grass and some red lines whatever" then you aren't trying very hard to notice the difference and you won't see it. It's easy for me to see the difference because I know the course extremely well.
Second change is easier to spot. About 20 or 30 meters from the bottom of the big hill the path usually goes to the left at a 45 degree angle down to the street before it makes another left turn. This year it went all the way straight down to the street then did a hard left turn.
Third change was easy to see yesterday but harder to see today. Foot Locker re-used the same exact path coming back across the road that they used going across the road right before the 1 mile mark. They did that because the City of San Diego blocked the normal come back across the road route with a log and Foot Locker didn't feel like moving that log so they made the return runners go around it back to slightly below the 1 mile mark.
However Foot Locker did move one log that was blocking the runners from going across the street to the mile mark. After the race Foot Locker moved that log back. It looks like the City of San Diego purposely put those logs there to completely block access to the dirt parking lot. You can't park there next to the mile marker like you used to be able to do for many years because it's totally blocked by logs.
It's harder to see the red lines now unless you look very closely because the red paint was on sand and spectators walked all over it.
Also I did ask several of the Foot Locker people why they changed the course to make it longer and all of them said it wasn't changed and it wasn't longer but they are all wrong. I asked each one of them to come with me and I would show them but none of them wanted to do that. It appears that the senior Foot Locker people didn't intend to lengthen the course (which is why they all incorrectly claimed it wasn't lengthened) so it was probably the low level park maintenance guys whose job it was to paint the red lines who screwed up.
Hopefully next year it goes back to the traditional course.
I was there and watched the race. I also watched the replay. Not so much to argue but because I wanted to see the entire race. I noticed the slight change at the top of the hill that you mention as your number 1, not substantial. Didn't notice your #2 change - it looked the same (or similar enough) as previous. And #3 was actually the most obvious to me because I noticed it yesterday and because I know the course since I... well, because I have lived here all my life and was 'once a runner'. hahaha
My sense is the course was slightly different but not a substantial amount. It has changed slightly over the years for any number of reasons (which are mostly park related). the course was slower this year because the park is in poor condition not because of rain or because it was longer.
btw, as the poster above points out park maintenance guys don't mark the course... it's the same tireless hard working volunteers that do it every year. Thanks for all your work guys!!(Fun fact: GPS watches aren't exact. )
The course was changed this year between the 1 mile and 1.5 mile marks. (1.5 mile to 2 mile remained the same.)
I was there and saw the changes myself. I also heard several runners express surprise at how long the course was this year based on the info from their watches.
Also, the big hill was soggy because of recent rain and a sprinkler head that broke on Friday.
recent rain? what? i live here. it hasn't rained in months... unless you call the 10 minute sprinkle we had the day before rain?
the course may have been slightly changed but not a significant amount to make the distance much more than it has been for a while.
the course is slower now because of upkeep at that park... it's awful. the city doesn't want to spend the money on it.
As someone watching the race from the east coast, it seems the course was in terrible condition. Someone need to maintain it better, or just 'fix it up' for this race. It wouldn't cost much to put wooden planks with sod over the street crossings. Also, there was some type of plank right at the top of the big hill, (right next to the big water pipe) again that should be temporarily covered with sod. Finally, get a municipal water truck to sprinkle water on the dirt portions of the course. The kids should not have to be eating dust kicked up from the lead vehicle. The announcers even mentioned the dust.
For such a venerable race, the course should be in better condition.
Hey buddy , those low level Park maintenance guys are not the ones that paint the lines on the course It's the volunteers that come out and work their a$ off to get the course ready for the kids, they don't get paid they don't get anything they enjoy it I know I'm one of them.
Who should I contact so that I can volunteer to prepare the Foot Locker course?
I used to bemoan the demise of FL, but NXN seems like a meet which is more fun. The emphasis is on teams, and it's a real XC course.
The San Diego course IS a real XC course. Over 300 ft of elevation gain (and loss) and lots of tight turns. There's nothing soft or wimpy about it.
One interesting and hard thing about the course they pointed out to my kid when he ran it, and he lamented on after the race, is that it’s never flat. Always rising or falling and it isn’t just the big uphill and downhill.
FL is less prestigious than NXN, and that’s been true for more than a decade.
You may be right, but the history of Foot Locker will always make it more prestigious in my eyes. If I was a high school star, I'd want to win the race that was won by Bob Kennedy, Dathan Ritzenhein, Chris Solinsky, Ed Cheserek, Grant Fisher, and Cole Hocker.
You may be right, but the history of Foot Locker will always make it more prestigious in my eyes. If I was a high school star, I'd want to win the race that was won by Bob Kennedy, Dathan Ritzenhein, Chris Solinsky, Ed Cheserek, Grant Fisher, and Cole Hocker.
What impresses everyone about the FL meet's historic pedigree (which they themselves now really lean into, hence the "45th Anniversary" stuff this year) makes even more baffling their attempt to re-brand as Eastbay and then Champs a couple years ago. Even though they've given that up, I do think the confusion around it was another small factor in setting them back.
i took all the strava data i could find. it looks to me like it's around .03-.04 longer, which should be around a 9 second difference from last year. Generally coros pacer 3 garmin shows longer on the courses.
Footlocker 2024 Coros Pace 2 - 3.21 Coros pace 3 - 3.25 Coros pace 3 - 3.25 Garmin Forerunner 45 - 3.18
Woodbridge 2024 Coros Pace 3 - 3.03 Garmin Forerunner 245 Music - 3.00 Garmin Forerunner 245 Music - 3.02 Garmin Forerunner 235 - 3.00 Garmin Forerunner 245 Music - 3.07 Coros Pace 3 - 3.05 Coros pace 2 - 3.01 Garmin Forerunner 949 - 3.05
I can also see the two spots you are talking about. It's not a lot but when done twice it could add the distance by maybe 40-50 meters
Thanks for posting the available strava data for Foot Locker 2024 and 2023 ... They are actual measurements ... Even though strava measurements are not perfect, they indicate the course was longer in 2024.
I was hoping somebody with experience measured the course with a wheel in both 2023 and 2024 and would post those results.
The actual distance of the Foot Locker race does not matter to me and what I do ... But I have already heard that the final times do matter to some of the runners and/or their connections.
I believe the Boys winning time in 2024 (15:23.9) is the slowest winning time in the history of Foot Locker Balboa ... I previous slowest was in 2004 (15:22, Kenneth Cormier), and that year a storm hit the course earlier in the week and knocked down a couple of trees causing some minor course changes ... a San Diego guy at the meet said it added some minor distance to the race, but the new footing was not good (plus it nearly 80 degrees and humid) ... The Girls winning time in 2004 was 17:31, and Elizabeth Leachman ran 17:31.1 this year (which might be slowest-ever winning time?).
Don't look now, California is having issues with measuring a course accurately!!! Over to you Rich Gonzalez to lop off 250 meters and adjust FAT times as you see fit.
I can also see the two spots you are talking about. It's not a lot but when done twice it could add the distance by maybe 40-50 meters
Thanks for posting the available strava data for Foot Locker 2024 and 2023 ... They are actual measurements ... Even though strava measurements are not perfect, they indicate the course was longer in 2024.
I was hoping somebody with experience measured the course with a wheel in both 2023 and 2024 and would post those results.
The actual distance of the Foot Locker race does not matter to me and what I do ... But I have already heard that the final times do matter to some of the runners and/or their connections.
I believe the Boys winning time in 2024 (15:23.9) is the slowest winning time in the history of Foot Locker Balboa ... I previous slowest was in 2004 (15:22, Kenneth Cormier), and that year a storm hit the course earlier in the week and knocked down a couple of trees causing some minor course changes ... a San Diego guy at the meet said it added some minor distance to the race, but the new footing was not good (plus it nearly 80 degrees and humid) ... The Girls winning time in 2004 was 17:31, and Elizabeth Leachman ran 17:31.1 this year (which might be slowest-ever winning time?).
It's not surprising that the slowest times ever are from the longest Foot Locker Nationals course ever.
A longer course doesn't matter for the purpose of speed ratings. But for a runner trying to compare how they did this year vs last year it matters. And for someone who has a shot at a course record (Leachman next year) it matters a lot.
It's surprising how the Foot Locker Nationals course has kept getting longer and longer over the years since it was first held at Balboa Park in 1983. It's also quite a bit longer now than it was when the course records were set in 1985 (boys - 14:36) and 1990 (girls - 16:39).
The shorter course in the past is why 100% of the girls winners between 1983 to 1986 were sub 17 but there has only been 6 sub 17 girls winners in the 32 races at Balboa Park from 1987 - 2024 which is only 18% of the winners under 17 minutes.
100% down to only 18% being sub 17 is a huge drop.
1983 - Original course (was 2.95 to 3.0 miles, not 5k)
1984 or 1985 - course got longer
1988 - course got longer again
2002 - course got longer again
2024 - course got longer again
Even if the course in 2025 goes back to the length of the 2023 course it's still about 10 seconds longer than the course was back in 1990 when Melody Fairchild set the current girls course record.
I think that if the course goes back to the 2023 version that a 100% in shape Leachman can break the course record next year but it won't be easy.
Rumors of Footlocker's death have been greatly exaggerated.
If you just look at the boys/girls winners of the two races since NXN introduced a true individual championship in 2008, here's what you get:
Boys: Footlocker can lay claim to 3 Olympic medals (2x Grant Fisher, 1x Cole Hocker). NXN claims 1 Olympian (Nico Young).
Girls: Footlocker can lay claim to 1 Olympic medal (Molly Seidel), another Olympian (Weini Kelati), and a 3x WMM medalist (Jordan Hasay). NXN doesn't have anyone approaching those credentials on the girls side (though Tuohy or others may yet change that).
Put in this light, isn't this a good argument for the continuing prestige (at least at the top of the ticket) for Footlocker?