Thanks for this and it's a subject I'm interested in. Is it as simple as this? The decline has been very steep. They were part of the Trofeo Iberico which evolved the Euro 10000m challenge and now they seem to not even do their annual 10000m race vs Spain. Or if they do, the result is very one sided. Although noone was ever caught I think at least part of the previous success, for a few, was EPO usage, and I note the Portuguese decline became much steeper from c 2000/1 when EPO tests started
Probably. You know which countries are the dirty ones when their results went up during the EPO era, and declined when EPO tests and then the ABP came in. And you know which countries are the cleaner ones when they always had a tradition of distance running, they declined during the EPO era and no testing in EA, and now are getting stronger again.
The Spanish haven't declined so much, and are even getting stronger again, because evidently their sports bodies and legal system are corrupt as hell (as evidenced by the operacion puerto fiasco).
Hasnt it occurred to you that the cleaner countries started doping in order to compete with the mass doping ones? which is why theyre doing well?
Probably. You know which countries are the dirty ones when their results went up during the EPO era, and declined when EPO tests and then the ABP came in. And you know which countries are the cleaner ones when they always had a tradition of distance running, they declined during the EPO era and no testing in EA, and now are getting stronger again.
The Spanish haven't declined so much, and are even getting stronger again, because evidently their sports bodies and legal system are corrupt as hell (as evidenced by the operacion puerto fiasco).
Hasnt it occurred to you that the cleaner countries started doping in order to compete with the mass doping ones? which is why theyre doing well?
So Britain, Australia, Netherlands etc started doping in order to compete just when the ABP was starting to nab East Africans and anti-doping was set up in Kenya??
Isn't a more likely explanation the extra motivating factor of believing that you can compete on a fairly level playing field again?
Just to take the example of Josh Kerr. If the ABP and anti-doping in Kenya hadn't come about, there might be 2 or 3 Kenyans and the odd North African and Spaniard running under 3:26 now. Maybe gold silver and bronze in Paris would have been Katir, George Manangoi, and Reynould Cheryuit, all under 3:26. All the special people here who endlessly debate whether Morceli or El G were the all time GOATs would be making threads asking which of Katir and Manangoi were the greatest 1500m runners in history.
Instead, look at how Kerr improved the last couple of years knowing that he was in with a shot of gold and becoming the best in the world. That was through that little bit extra of dedication, hard work, and self-belief. That wouldn't have happened if Africans were still able to juice freely and be running 3:24 today. Just like if EPO had been available 20 years earlier than it was, and the older brother of Morceli was running 3:28 along with a couple of Kenyans in the 1970's, perhaps Coe, Ovett, and Cram would never have won a gold or even broken 3:32, or even one or two of them would have picked a different sport entirely.
Probably. You know which countries are the dirty ones when their results went up during the EPO era, and declined when EPO tests and then the ABP came in.
According to you, either the Brits doped or the Portuguese were clean. Except for Paula's Marathon, the times were generally pretty balanced between countries during the EPO era.
Hasnt it occurred to you that the cleaner countries started doping in order to compete with the mass doping ones? which is why theyre doing well?
So Britain, Australia, Netherlands etc started doping in order to compete just when the ABP was starting to nab East Africans and anti-doping was set up in Kenya??
Isn't a more likely explanation the extra motivating factor of believing that you can compete on a fairly level playing field again?
Just to take the example of Josh Kerr. If the ABP and anti-doping in Kenya hadn't come about, there might be 2 or 3 Kenyans and the odd North African and Spaniard running under 3:26 now. Maybe gold silver and bronze in Paris would have been Katir, George Manangoi, and Reynould Cheryuit, all under 3:26. All the special people here who endlessly debate whether Morceli or El G were the all time GOATs would be making threads asking which of Katir and Manangoi were the greatest 1500m runners in history.
Instead, look at how Kerr improved the last couple of years knowing that he was in with a shot of gold and becoming the best in the world. That was through that little bit extra of dedication, hard work, and self-belief. That wouldn't have happened if Africans were still able to juice freely and be running 3:24 today. Just like if EPO had been available 20 years earlier than it was, and the older brother of Morceli was running 3:28 along with a couple of Kenyans in the 1970's, perhaps Coe, Ovett, and Cram would never have won a gold or even broken 3:32, or even one or two of them would have picked a different sport entirely.
Theres no such thing as a level playing field. Everyone at top level dopes.Thats just the sport,and its been that way for decades. Now do i believe plenty of people from the countries you mentioned are on drugs? absolutely yes. Why wouldnt they be ? especially if it means their only way of being competitive with the best. Its go hard or go home. Self belief has nothing to do with it. Meanwhile back to the topic at hand,portugal does still have a small number of really good runners,but nothing like they were.
According to you, either the Brits doped or the Portuguese were clean. Except for Paula's Marathon, the times were generally pretty balanced between countries during the EPO era.
I'm afraid this doesn't provide the most clinical evidence for a national doping or non doping ethos. The UK women's data derives from a sample size of just 2, Holmes and Radcliffe. The portugese men's data from 5000 to marathon is all derived from Pinto. I believe 4 or even 5 of the portugese womens data are those of Ribeiro. Data aside, I watched Pinto win the Euro 10,000 in 1998 and noticed that the faster he got the wider his smile became.
The decline in Portuguese running was already happening when Antonio Pinto and Fernanda Ribeiro were top runners thanks to EPO.
The main reason for it is that football development structures started to get more and more professional and casting a wide net all over the country.
Basically the best athletes in Portugal end up in football the same way the best athletes in the US end up in American football. This started in the late 90s and early 2000s.
We've been here before but I'd really wonder how many potential world class distance runners (3k and further) were lost to pro soccer in Portugal or indeed anywhere. If you mean track and field athletes across all event groups then I'm with you.
Thanks for this and it's a subject I'm interested in. Is it as simple as this? The decline has been very steep. They were part of the Trofeo Iberico which evolved the Euro 10000m challenge and now they seem to not even do their annual 10000m race vs Spain. Or if they do, the result is very one sided. Although noone was ever caught I think at least part of the previous success, for a few, was EPO usage, and I note the Portuguese decline became much steeper from c 2000/1 when EPO tests started
And I note that the US rise became much steeper after the Salazar "if it ain't banned yet it ain't cheating" era.
According to you, either the Brits doped or the Portuguese were clean. Except for Paula's Marathon, the times were generally pretty balanced between countries during the EPO era.
I'm afraid this doesn't provide the most clinical evidence for a national doping or non doping ethos. The UK women's data derives from a sample size of just 2, Holmes and Radcliffe. The portugese men's data from 5000 to marathon is all derived from Pinto. I believe 4 or even 5 of the portugese womens data are those of Ribeiro. Data aside, I watched Pinto win the Euro 10,000 in 1998 and noticed that the faster he got the wider his smile became.