Connor Mantz and Clayton Young should've run Valencia instead of New York

I guess you're right.

I honestly think Mantz can run 2:04:40 - 2:05:59, just because he has a similar profile like Levins & Ringer and he beat Ringer in Paris although he ran very brave and Young like 2:05:30 - 2:06:30. NY definitely was a very good payday and hilly like Paris, so the hill prep helped. No mistake from those guys and they are capable of more than 2:07/08.

Pikachu

Maybe they should run faster than 2:09 before we decide they can run faster than 2:09.

I am going to keep saying this: it doesn’t matter.

Mantz and Young are consistently top ten against strong fields at important marathons. They are also consistently the top two Americans at any marathon they run. Comparing marathon times across courses is irrelevant.

But, the two soul mates are irrelevant at competitive marathons. Whoopee, top 10 running 2:09.

Well it does mean something actually. This isnt XC. Times matter somewhat in marathoning. Ssss is right, no reason to think either can break 2:06. And Mantz and Young would've been like 26 and 28th at the Olympics if Oly marathon actually included all the best E African and Japanese runners.

If Galen Rupp ran Valencia in his marathon prime with superior shoes he could have the AR. If Ches was an American citizen he would have it now. Rupp and Ches are/were superior athletes to Young and Mantz...Ryan Hall would've broken 2:04 with modern shoes.

Young and Mantz are our top guys for now though. Hopefully Nico Young takes up marathoning in his prime. I think he could be the AR holder if he does.

To the extent that this is true, it shouldn’t be. Racing is about competing against the other people in the race, on that course, on that day.

I know that Mantz and Young's bank accounts must be healthier after NYC, but I really believe, from a coaching to fast times perspective, that Ed should have split the guys up. Put Mantz in NYC, he loves to race and has that aggressive nature, and have Clayton go to Valencia and sit in a 2:07 or 2:06 pack as long as he can.

I thin that Clayton is getting a complex almost being hammered by Mantz day after day after day. And he's a different racer. Watch all his after race videos from Chicago, the Olympics and NYC and in every one of them, he makes a comment about there being a break that he hesitates to go after and then gets stuck in no man's land. Mantz aggressive compeitive nature makes him jump on those breaks in a way that Young doesn't. NYC is an aggressive runner's course, Valencia would have shown that extreme fitness that Young has in his legs right now without the pressure of having to watch Conner's back recede in to the distance... again.

Both runners had years which had them receive next to nothing for their trials and Olympic runs. To cash in was the right move. It would have been irresponsible of them not to do so.

2:07:47 is faster than 2:09

Ah, true enough. Conner can run 2:07:49. And Clayton can run 2:08.

Empiricism sated.

Now, if only they could be competitive.

As the top American marathoners they will make far more running U.S. marathons than abroad. Internationally, they are not players and would have gotten very little in appearance fees to run Valencia. There's a reason that outside of Olympics, Galen Rupp has only run U.S. marathons. As top American, Chicago would pay him a lot to run. Top American means nothing outside the U.S.

While it may not compare to the overall pay packet for appearance fee + top 10 finish at NYC, both of these guys will almost certainly have a hefty bonus in their contract if they break the American record (would not be surprised if it was 50-100k). So there was definitely money on the table for them in Valencia, but it wouldn't be guaranteed like an appearance fee.

In general though, Americans seem to only race in the US-based races. Looking at the World Athletics top lists - since 2022 only 5 of the top 50 performances have come from races outside of the US (not including the Olympics). It would be great to see people have a crack at London/Berlin/Valencia. As is the case with Simbassa - he's now faster, which means more likely to command $$$ at those races. Sometimes you need to invest in yourself.

Yeah, I understand that Young and Mantz are good buddies and training partners, but while this arrangement works for training, it doesn't work for racing. Racing is every man for himself. Young, even in a race, seems to defer to Mantz. He let Mantz win the OT and lost $15k (the difference between 1st and 2nd place prize money). He needs to ask himself: Would Mantz have done the same for him? I kinda think not.

Rupp ran the Prague marathon.

maybe they are not into paced time trials?

I totally understand that, but as I said at the top of the post, this is about running fast, not the business of making a living at runnning.

And I stand by the fact that Young would have killed it at Valencia this year, as opposed to NYC.

Prague has a lot of cobblestone streets and streetcar tracks and it is not flat. I cannot imagine that Rupp wouldn't have run faster in Valencia, especially with the better competition.

The only reason Rupp ran Prague in 2018 was because he dropped out of Boston three weeks earlier at 19 miles due to the horrible weather conditions,

You've completely missed the point of the conversation.