Historically speaking...has Denna surpassed Joanie?

Beth Bonner took us under 3:00Cheri Bridges got us under 2:50Jackie Hanson took us thru 245 and 2:40Patti Dillon went under 2:30 Joanie Benoit broke 2:25

grete waitz wrote:

Smarter than 88% of You wrote:

First American woman under 2:20 (and did it again) is plenty pioneering, considering what came between Joanie's prime and now.

nothing significantly pioneering about that. do you remember the names of the US women who first ran sub 2:45, sub 2:40, 2:35, sub 2:30, sub 2:25?

didnt think so.

Agree with you on all counts except one - Joan did her best running before children, and at the Olympics she was engaged but not yet married.

Running alone I'm certain gave her the mental toughness needed to go it alone on the LA Freeway and to win a "pure guts race" (as Pre would have caled it) against Ingrid at Chicago in 1985.

I'm not taking anything away from Deena, Paula, or any other woman who runs faster than Joan, Grete, Ingrid, and Rosa did. Times change, training methods improve, and world records fall as a result. Those points make this a useless discussion. Joan, Grete, Ingrid, Rosa, Jacqueline Gareau and others did it all pretty much on their own.

SDRunner wrote:

Ingrid Kristiansen is still the 3rd fastest 10ker ever, an ungodly 30:13 at Oslo in 85. The only women who have run faster are the Chinses catepiller women.

Paula Radcliffe (30:01), Berhane Adere (30:04), Worknesh Kidane (30:07) and Lornah Kiplagat (30:12) don't count?

Bill Rodgers wrote:

Joan, Grete, Ingrid, Rosa, Jacqueline Gareau and others did it all pretty much on their own.

Amen.

to say that kastor "surpasses" joan benoiot is to put her on the same level as grete waitz. she's not even close.

Bill Rodgers wrote:

Joan, Grete, Ingrid, Rosa, Jacqueline Gareau and others did it all pretty much on their own.

Do we say that Bannister was the greatest miler because he was the first to break 4? Times are always going to improve and we give notice to ocassional barriers as feats of human acheivement...

But ultimately, runners pursue glory to reign as champions against the competition of the day. A gold medal is a statement of who has risen to the top. Joan rose to the top higher than Kastor has thus far. Period.

If you want to speak of times and compare training methods and pacing during racing and all that, you must also talk about the LEVEL OF SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE of women training and running. Remember, JB ran and won in the FIRST women's Olympic marathon because many people perpetuated the myth that women were not strong enough to compete like the men. Of course women ran marathons prior to 84 (see Waitz for example) but the pressures were so much greater in 84 than in 04.

Women are much more supported, encouraged and accepted in athletics compared to earlier times. If you are going to include relative comparisons such as times, training, you must include social factors as well.