I think the nuance is actually that some women have high testosterone just because, and others have high testosterone because they have testicles. Most people who don't pay attention buy the "we don't ban Michael Phelps for having big feet" argument.
It’s not hard to defend the Phelps argument in a setting where the rules of engagement of respectful discourse are common (so not LR of course). The argument is just saying that there are some physiological attributes on the basis of which we filter and others on which we don’t in sport. Long feet and torso offer a much more direct advantage compared to karyotype, your favorite filtering attribute, that correlate with a population-level statistical advantage.
5ARD with elite ballpark talent can be argued as a genetic lottery just like Phelps. Not considering her a woman is just a definitonal attack, not one based on any quantifiable principle of fairness of advantage.
That is not what the Phelps argument says at all. It says Phelps has physical advantages and Khelif has physical advantages, and we let Phelps compete, so we should let Khelif compete. Which completely ignores the fact that swimming does not have rules about body size, but it does have rules about sex, and Khelif is a man competing in women's events. How do you defend that?
It’s not hard to defend the Phelps argument in a setting where the rules of engagement of respectful discourse are common (so not LR of course). The argument is just saying that there are some physiological attributes on the basis of which we filter and others on which we don’t in sport. Long feet and torso offer a much more direct advantage compared to karyotype, your favorite filtering attribute, that correlate with a population-level statistical advantage.
5ARD with elite ballpark talent can be argued as a genetic lottery just like Phelps. Not considering her a woman is just a definitonal attack, not one based on any quantifiable principle of fairness of advantage.
That is not what the Phelps argument says at all. It says Phelps has physical advantages and Khelif has physical advantages, and we let Phelps compete, so we should let Khelif compete. Which completely ignores the fact that swimming does not have rules about body size, but it does have rules about sex, and Khelif is a man competing in women's events. How do you defend that?
Oh if we are going to appeal to authority and rules, IOC says Imane is a woman by way of her passport, so she is a woman competing in a women’s event. Case closed.
Glad we are on the same page now. Your restatement of the Phelps argument is saying the same thing I said while overtly disagreeing.
I think the nuance is actually that some women have high testosterone just because, and others have high testosterone because they have testicles. Most people who don't pay attention buy the "we don't ban Michael Phelps for having big feet" argument.
The "nuance" is that women have XX chromosomes and anyone with a Y is a biological male and shouldn't be boxing in the women's division.
It might surprise you that this is a silly made up definition in your head and far from a universally accepted one, especially among experts who know something about human sexual biology, and not by the IOC or WA. Some women have a Y and some men are XX.
The "nuance" is that women have XX chromosomes and anyone with a Y is a biological male and shouldn't be boxing in the women's division.
It might surprise you that this is a silly made up definition in your head and far from a universally accepted one, especially among experts who know something about human sexual biology, and not by the IOC or WA. Some women have a Y and some men are XX.
People like simple answers. The world is rarely that simple. And people struggle even more with the idea that competing in the Olympics and using a restroom can have different definitions.
as this is the billionth thread on trans issues on the board (rojo knows it gets the clicks) it will break down to there is a penis and does it matter. Nobody can really answer that. We are left guessing.
It might surprise you that this is a silly made up definition in your head and far from a universally accepted one, especially among experts who know something about human sexual biology, and not by the IOC or WA. Some women have a Y and some men are XX.
People like simple answers. The world is rarely that simple. And people struggle even more with the idea that competing in the Olympics and using a restroom can have different definitions.
as this is the billionth thread on trans issues on the board (rojo knows it gets the clicks) it will break down to there is a penis and does it matter. Nobody can really answer that. We are left guessing.
Oh if we are going to appeal to authority and rules, IOC says Imane is a woman by way of her passport, so she is a woman competing in a women’s event. Case closed.
Glad we are on the same page now. Your restatement of the Phelps argument is saying the same thing I said while overtly disagreeing.
But the "well, it says so on the passport" is just passing the buck or dodging responsibility by the IOC.
They have a responsibility to do some due diligence around who competes in their games. At some point the IOC has to make a real effort to protect non-DSD women from the impossible standard of competing with people who are walking around with male-levels of testosterone (the #1 PED of all time).
And just because some country could issue "women's passports" to a group of men, and those men could win medals in the women's events, then the IOC can't escape responsibility by saying "well, their home country said they were women."
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Oh if we are going to appeal to authority and rules, IOC says Imane is a woman by way of her passport, so she is a woman competing in a women’s event. Case closed.
Glad we are on the same page now. Your restatement of the Phelps argument is saying the same thing I said while overtly disagreeing.
But that "well, it says so on the passport" is just passing the buck or dodging responsibility by the IOC. They have a responsibility to do some due diligence around who competes in their games.
If some random country issued "women's passports" to a group of men, those men won medals in the women's events, then the IOC can't escape responsibility by saying "well, their home country said they were women."
You seem to have walked in mid-conversation without context. That was a fitting response to the other poster’s silly appeal to authority. See the more substantive fairness based post I made earlier that elicited his silly response.
But that "well, it says so on the passport" is just passing the buck or dodging responsibility by the IOC. They have a responsibility to do some due diligence around who competes in their games.
If some random country issued "women's passports" to a group of men, those men won medals in the women's events, then the IOC can't escape responsibility by saying "well, their home country said they were women."
You seem to have walked in mid-conversation without context. That was a fitting response to the other poster’s silly appeal to authority. See the more substantive fairness based post I made earlier that elicited his silly response.
To add, no country is issuing “women’s passports” to men, leave alone sending them to the Olympics. Imane is a woman just fine, outside of anonymous incel forum circles at least.
I think the nuance is actually that some women have high testosterone just because, and others have high testosterone because they have testicles. Most people who don't pay attention buy the "we don't ban Michael Phelps for having big feet" argument.
The "nuance" is that women have XX chromosomes and anyone with a Y is a biological male and shouldn't be boxing in the women's division.
I am a supported of DSD and trans-women's rights in general but not in the context of competing with biologically female women.
To act like we can't define those things is asinine. If a med school was studying these individuals, they could tell you who had high female levels of testosterone (naturally) and who had male levels of testosterone (due to DSD or chromosomal reasons). We actually do have definitions that work because they are based on measurable T levels.
I am just tired of people who I consider allies of the trans/DSD community making a fight for social and civil right harder by demanding to compete against girls and women in sports. That is wrong of us and hurts our cause generally speaking because everyone is against it. For good reason, obviously.
Oh if we are going to appeal to authority and rules, IOC says Imane is a woman by way of her passport, so she is a woman competing in a women’s event. Case closed.
Glad we are on the same page now. Your restatement of the Phelps argument is saying the same thing I said while overtly disagreeing.
But the "well, it says so on the passport" is just passing the buck or dodging responsibility by the IOC.
They have a responsibility to do some due diligence around who competes in their games. At some point the IOC has to make a real effort to protect non-DSD women from the impossible standard of competing with people who are walking around with male-levels of testosterone (the #1 PED of all time).
And just because some country could issue "women's passports" to a group of men, and those men could win medals in the women's events, then the IOC can't escape responsibility by saying "well, their home country said they were women."
IOC gave up that responsibility because they came to the conclusion that governing bodies for different sports will never reach an agreement and they did not want to settle with the lowest common denominator.
The root of problem in this case is that International Boxing Association is a corrupt organization that lost its right to run the Olympic boxing. So IOC took over as an emergency measure, but they don't have any DSD policy other than their outdated rule going back to pre-Tokyo.
I am a supported of DSD and trans-women's rights in general but not in the context of competing with biologically female women.
To act like we can't define those things is asinine. If a med school was studying these individuals, they could tell you who had high female levels of testosterone (naturally) and who had male levels of testosterone (due to DSD or chromosomal reasons). We actually do have definitions that work because they are based on measurable T levels.
I am just tired of people who I consider allies of the trans/DSD community making a fight for social and civil right harder by demanding to compete against girls and women in sports. That is wrong of us and hurts our cause generally speaking because everyone is against it. For good reason, obviously.
I don’t know what you are trying to define or whether or what you are attributing to me. If you are advocating fairness of competitive advantage, you are on the same page as my posts. However, XY can’t compete with XX” is not a quantifiable metric of fairness, it’s just a religion.
I am just tired of people who I consider allies of the trans/DSD community making a fight for social and civil right harder by demanding to compete against girls and women in sports. That is wrong of us and hurts our cause generally speaking because everyone is against it. For good reason, obviously.
I am tired of people who try to politicize an issue that can be better handled by sports governing bodies. In politics, simpler arguments usually win. So the more extreme the position is, the more support it gets. And all the nuances are lost.
People screaming "XX and XY" at the top their voices are the perfect example of this.
I think the fact that shocks non-runners the most is that a boy at my daughter's school (two years ago) who barely trained, ate junk food, goofed around like a normal boy, and somehow ran 1:52 in the 800m.
I think non-runners don't realize how easy it was for this kid compared to how hard all the women on Earth have trained, sacrificed, and worked. Yet all the women (even the doped ones) were never faster than that Big Mac eating 11th grader...
Testosterone is the king of the PEDs. To allow it (at male levels) into women's sports is to ruin women's competition (as we saw during the Caster/Niyonsaba years).
I think the fact that shocks non-runners the most is that a boy at my daughter's school (two years ago) who barely trained, ate junk food, goofed around like a normal boy, and somehow ran 1:52 in the 800m.
I think non-runners don't realize how easy it was for this kid compared to how hard all the women on Earth have trained, sacrificed, and worked. Yet all the women (even the doped ones) were never faster than that Big Mac eating 11th grader...
Testosterone is the king of the PEDs. To allow it (at male levels) into women's sports is to ruin women's competition (as we saw during the Caster/Niyonsaba years).
So what do you want? Ban ALL athletes with Y chromosome from women's competition? That would not only defy the science, it will probably not defensible in the court.
I am a supported of DSD and trans-women's rights in general but not in the context of competing with biologically female women.
To act like we can't define those things is asinine. If a med school was studying these individuals, they could tell you who had high female levels of testosterone (naturally) and who had male levels of testosterone (due to DSD or chromosomal reasons). We actually do have definitions that work because they are based on measurable T levels.
I am just tired of people who I consider allies of the trans/DSD community making a fight for social and civil right harder by demanding to compete against girls and women in sports. That is wrong of us and hurts our cause generally speaking because everyone is against it. For good reason, obviously.
I am a supported of DSD and trans-women's rights in general but not in the context of competing with biologically female women.
To act like we can't define those things is asinine. If a med school was studying these individuals, they could tell you who had high female levels of testosterone (naturally) and who had male levels of testosterone (due to DSD or chromosomal reasons). We actually do have definitions that work because they are based on measurable T levels.
I am just tired of people who I consider allies of the trans/DSD community making a fight for social and civil right harder by demanding to compete against girls and women in sports. That is wrong of us and hurts our cause generally speaking because everyone is against it. For good reason, obviously.
