The record is a bit soft. I ran mid 15s there 30 years ago and found it harder to break 16 a week later at the CA state meet. So I was ~70s off the CR at Crystal Springs, and ~90s off the CR at Woodward Park. German Fernandez would have run close to 14 flat.
SOFT!!! The record stood for 51 years!!! Take a look at who has run this course, there are some big names that were NEVER close to 14:28. Anything under 14:50 is amazing.
Two entirely different courses, so comparing it to Woodward Park is not accurate, AND German never ran Crystal Springs, so assuming what he would have run is a guess at best. If we're talking track times, then you can make an accurate comparison. Crystal Springs represents the TRUE meaning of cross-country racing which requires a huge amount of race strategy and course management. The course is relentless the entire 2.95 miles with extreme uphill and downhill stretches, tight single-track trails which serpentines in and out of small canyons with uneven footing. Your only "recovery" portion of the course is a 400–600-meter slight downhill stretch ending at the 1.5-mile mark, this after a brutal 800m uphill climb, yes, a half mile uphill! The true ball-buster is the 400 plus uphill grade to the finish.
I have enjoyed running at Crystal Springs, its an amazing course and incredibly hard. Its wonderful that its so well cared for and completely open to the public. I hope its never altered or closed. Cant wait to run it again some time.
The record is a bit soft. I ran mid 15s there 30 years ago and found it harder to break 16 a week later at the CA state meet. So I was ~70s off the CR at Crystal Springs, and ~90s off the CR at Woodward Park. German Fernandez would have run close to 14 flat.
SOFT!!! The record stood for 51 years!!! Take a look at who has run this course, there are some big names that were NEVER close to 14:28. Anything under 14:50 is amazing.
Two entirely different courses, so comparing it to Woodward Park is not accurate, AND German never ran Crystal Springs, so assuming what he would have run is a guess at best. If we're talking track times, then you can make an accurate comparison. Crystal Springs represents the TRUE meaning of cross-country racing which requires a huge amount of race strategy and course management. The course is relentless the entire 2.95 miles with extreme uphill and downhill stretches, tight single-track trails which serpentines in and out of small canyons with uneven footing. Your only "recovery" portion of the course is a 400–600-meter slight downhill stretch ending at the 1.5-mile mark, this after a brutal 800m uphill climb, yes, a half mile uphill! The true ball-buster is the 400 plus uphill grade to the finish.
An amazing run by Trey!
Don’t get me wrong — congratulations to Trey! It is a huge accomplishment to break such a longstanding record on an historic course such as Crystal Springs. However, for the course being as old as it is, IMO the previous record was a bit soft, and I doubt the current record will hold up for very long.
Crystal Springs is a heavily run course over the years, but is mainly only raced by runners from the Central Coast (CCS) and occasionally the North Coast (NCS). Although strong in the 70s and 80s, these sections have been relatively weak for boys ever since. Rarely do the absolute best runners in the state venture that for north from the SS, CS, and SD sections.
When have traditional powerhouses such as Newbury Park, Great Oak, Hart, Agoura, Jesuit, Poway, or Dana Hills ever run at Crystal Springs? Or the state’s best runners, e.g. Dameworth, Quintana, Hall, Fernandez, Young, etc?
If you scan the all-time list for Crystal Springs, the most recognizable names are from the far past, e.g. Kingery, Marden, Mastalir, Giusto, Butler, etc. There are only a handful of dominant state champions in that list after 1990, e.g. Balkman and most recently Aydon Stefanopoulos. The closest anyone got to the record (before Trey) was 20 years later in 2009 when a kid named Paul Summers blasted a surprise 14:41 to win CCS, yet ended up only 16th place in 15:35 at the CA state meet (D2) just two weeks later on the equally historic Woodward Park course.
My point is that it is a relatively soft record when compared to German Fernandez’s 14:24 at Woodward Park or Tamagno’s 14:23 at Mt. Sac which has stood up over the years against much stiffer competition.
Unless Trey improves his Woodward PR by 45 seconds next month, or until Stephanopolous wins CCS in 14 flat, I’ll still consider the record a bit soft.
Crystal Springs is a heavily run course over the years, but is mainly only raced by runners from the Central Coast (CCS) and occasionally the North Coast (NCS). Although strong in the 70s and 80s, these sections have been relatively weak for boys ever since.
What do you mean Crystal has been run by relatively weak CCS/NCS HS runners in recent years? The top sophomore and junior of 2019, Colin Peattie ran there. Speaking of Bellarmine, current Stanford twin runners Nolan and Galen Topper ran there and their former teammate-turned pro runner Meika Beaudon-Rousseau ran there and ran 14:4X or so.
The St. Francis (Mountain View) team went to NXN in 2017 and they all ran there. Eli Fitchen-Young and Aydon were nationally ranked runners last year who both ran at Crystal. Fitchen-Young was literally an All-American XC runner last year.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
SOFT!!! The record stood for 51 years!!! Take a look at who has run this course, there are some big names that were NEVER close to 14:28. Anything under 14:50 is amazing.
Two entirely different courses, so comparing it to Woodward Park is not accurate, AND German never ran Crystal Springs, so assuming what he would have run is a guess at best. If we're talking track times, then you can make an accurate comparison. Crystal Springs represents the TRUE meaning of cross-country racing which requires a huge amount of race strategy and course management. The course is relentless the entire 2.95 miles with extreme uphill and downhill stretches, tight single-track trails which serpentines in and out of small canyons with uneven footing. Your only "recovery" portion of the course is a 400–600-meter slight downhill stretch ending at the 1.5-mile mark, this after a brutal 800m uphill climb, yes, a half mile uphill! The true ball-buster is the 400 plus uphill grade to the finish.
An amazing run by Trey!
My point is that it is a relatively soft record when compared to German Fernandez’s 14:24 at Woodward Park or Tamagno’s 14:23 at Mt. Sac which has stood up over the years against much stiffer competition.
Tamagno's 14:23 at Mt Sac was also very soft when in comparison to German's 14:24 Woodward.
I would say the Mt Sac record and the Crystal Springs record are on par with one another.
Actually, you may be right about the Mt Sac record being roughly on par with Crystal Springs, as they are both just under 3 miles and considered equally difficult.
However, Tamagno has a better time at Woodward Park (14:45) than any of the top CCS performers mentioned above, so I guess this is mainly why I question the Crystal Springs record.
For whatever reason, the top CCS runners like Caldwell, Summers, Peattie, and the Toppers are nowhere to be found in the top times at Woodward Park. Fitchen-Young was much better than the rest (at 14:45) but still 20 seconds off Fernandez’ mark. This makes me think the section is traditionally a bit weak on the boys side, and the record is still a bit soft.
SOFT!!! The record stood for 51 years!!! Take a look at who has run this course, there are some big names that were NEVER close to 14:28. Anything under 14:50 is amazing.
Two entirely different courses, so comparing it to Woodward Park is not accurate, AND German never ran Crystal Springs, so assuming what he would have run is a guess at best. If we're talking track times, then you can make an accurate comparison. Crystal Springs represents the TRUE meaning of cross-country racing which requires a huge amount of race strategy and course management. The course is relentless the entire 2.95 miles with extreme uphill and downhill stretches, tight single-track trails which serpentines in and out of small canyons with uneven footing. Your only "recovery" portion of the course is a 400–600-meter slight downhill stretch ending at the 1.5-mile mark, this after a brutal 800m uphill climb, yes, a half mile uphill! The true ball-buster is the 400 plus uphill grade to the finish.
An amazing run by Trey!
Very accurate description of Crystal Springs.
The single 400 - 600 meter flat-to-downhill segment of the course is why Crystal is even more difficult than the famed hills of Mt Sac where there are plenty of long flat stretches to recover from running up the Switchbacks, Poop Out Hill and Reservoir Hill. But now, even those hills appear to have been relegated to the history books.
As to the assertion that Crystal's records are "soft" in comparison to Woodward Park's, I can only point out the obvious: a xc course in any state which annually hosts its state meet will have records considered superior to those of any other course in that state. That's not a knock against Crystal Springs. Rather, it's a testament to the accomplishments of national-calibre runners at Woodward Park which, in addition to 36 state meets, also hosted 18 Kinney/Footlocker West Regional meets -- to Crystal's one.
However, as has been pointed out above, when you have a former national hs marathon record holder now 2nd on your course records list, a Foot Locker national champion now 3rd on your list, and a couple of state champion twins with 8:44 & 8:51 3200m prs now 6th and 7th on your list, your course is anything but soft.
Mitch K. That's A blast from the past. If I remember correctly, he and Clancy Devery ran low 2:20s.
You are correct.
Clancy Devery/South Salem HS, OR ran a 2:23:05 in 1977 for 2nd on the AT hs marathon record list. He was a junior at the time. But being from Oregon, and predating Kinney, he never ran Crystal.
Another news source covering Trey's record -- with some blast-from-the-past photos and results from Mitch's race:
I believe the VCP 2.5-mile course has not deviated since at least 1957 and has record history dating back until then; a very similar course has been run since 1913. I think the college 5-mile course has been the same for a similar or even longer period - not sure about the 5k as they used to run 3 miles.
Fascinating.
I recall there being construction at VCP several years ago which altered either the 2.5 mile or 5k courses or both, but presumed they both returned to their historic configurations.
However, had no idea these courses may date to the late 1950s if not earlier -- but, am not totally surprised, as xc running at the scholastic level was mainly an East Coast/Midwest thing back then.
Would be very interested to see that 2.5 mile record list to learn if anyone from 50 years ago or even before is still on it.
I have enjoyed running at Crystal Springs, its an amazing course and incredibly hard. Its wonderful that its so well cared for and completely open to the public. I hope its never altered or closed. Cant wait to run it again some time.
All thanks to Bob Rush/course architect for maintaining it all those years.
Not sure if he's still doing so since his relatively recent retirement from CSM, so all thanks to whomever is his successor.
If you do run it again -- as I would like to do someday, but am now physically far removed from the SF Bay Area -- make sure to discretely park your car far down the hill from the course entrance. It was a cabal of Hallmark Dr homeowners who wanted to give xc the boot off their beloved patch of open space a few years back. And, definitely, do not knock on anyone's door after your run to ask if you could use the bathroom.
How about this: I'll ask Bob at CCS. We'll clear this whole thing up then.
Excellent.
Let him know that a former colleague, who was involved in the original construction of the course record board back in 1996, wishes him the best in his retirement. As I am now.
Trey Caldwell etches his name into the California XC history books with him running 14:27.1 at Crystal Springs XC, breaking the previous course record of 14:28! Crystal Springs is one of the most historical California XC venues, with more than 100,000 high school athletes having run the unchanged course since 1973. Here's footage of him breaking the Crystal Springs course record for anyone interested:
You cant call the new record soft just because Nolan topper, Collin peattie and fitchen young didnt run fast at woodward... They arent the ones that ran 14:27 the fastest out of those three was around 14:50
Posted the following on the 2024 CIF thread -- with a change regarding Caldwell's time per below -- but is most appropriate here:
Actually, Caldwell may have only tied the CR as all Crystal Springs times are rounded up to the nearest second. However, it is unclear whether Kingrey's 14:28 from 1973 was actually 14:27.x, 14:28.0 or 14:28.x. So it will be up to the current Crystal Springs statistician(s) to resolve this little issue.
Note: Kingery also ran a 2:23:47 marathon in 1973 . . . as a sophomore . . . at the time the hs record.
Jay Marden ran 14:28.4 in 1980 which is rounded up to 14:29.
Thus, we now have three boys under 14:30 on this historic 2.95 mile course -- which is arguably the most challenging xc course in the nation given it's steep hills and uphill climb to the finish while offering only one 200 - 300 meter stretch of flat dirt surface to "recover" from climbing up the big hill.
Personally elated to see Crystal Springs back in the news, this time for good reasons. Unfortunate what almost happened four years ago when some locals tried to shut the place down.
For those interested in some Crystal Springs history, the "prehistoric" course was laid out in 1969 and ran all the way down past what is now I-280, then back up to the top of the start/finish hill. That course had to be abandoned after only one year due to construction of the interstate in 1970.
The current course configuration was laid out in 1971. However, slight modifications made at the bottom of the hill following the 1971 season may or may not have changed the distance. Thus, for record keeping purposes, the current 2.95 mile configuration opened in 1972 and has remained unchanged since. (Results from 1969 and 1971 races have been lost to time.)
Regarding the big picture, xc became popular in the US at the hs and college level in the late 1930s -- the first NCAA meet being held in 1938. The sport was primarily popular back then on the East Coast and Midwest.
Bring this up because, somewhere east of the Mississippi, there probably exists cross country venues that have been in use before 1970. (Van Cortland Park/NYC? Franklin Park/Boston? Detweiller Park/Peoria?) However, very much doubt there exists today a cross country course of 2.0 miles or longer which has not changed one iota since then and has course records tabulated to its beginnings.
So, what Trey Caldwell did today is remarkable, accomplished on a remarkable course, that in the somewhat insular world of US xc running, should be enshrined as a national treasure.
If you go to the website I attached you’ll find results from the old 2.25 Crystal Springs course. Go to the Lynbrook cross country page and then go to previous years and you’ll find results. They are not lost. Thank goodness.
If you go to the website I attached you’ll find results from the old 2.25 Crystal Springs course. Go to the Lynbrook cross country page and then go to previous years and you’ll find results. They are not lost. Thank goodness.
Yes. Corrected myself on that topic in post #14 above.
Didn't recall seeing that old course list way-back-when the original lists were compiled back in the mid-1990s. Presumed they were lost to the passage of time. Happy to see they have resurfaced.
Runners from that first race in 1965 should all be contacted to receive a Lifetime Achievement Award.
If you go to the website I attached you’ll find results from the old 2.25 Crystal Springs course. Go to the Lynbrook cross country page and then go to previous years and you’ll find results. They are not lost. Thank goodness.
And, at least one entry in the "2nd Generations" lists will need to be updated:
Son-Eli Fitchen-Young Santa Cruz 14:55.1 Jr 2023 CCS-D4
And Eli still has the CCS meet @ Crystal Springs to come.
For 8:57/3200pr EF-Y to run a 14:43.0 pr and lose by 16 seconds to 8:53/3200pr Trey Caldwell shows how remarkable an accomplishment Caldwell's performance was.
Hesitant to predict what they will run at Woodward Park next month because past comparisons are all over the map. Because Crystal is much more difficult than Woodward but also much shorter, while kids normally train through October then taper in November, just can't say.
Will state this: with the Newbury Park dynasty over, for the first time in awhile the odds are looking pretty good that the best hs boys distance runner in California comes from the northern part of the state.
