Gans Creek hosted the MW regional in 2022. Looking at the top W, and neglecting OSU runners who were clearly not going for time, the top finishers (Feyan, Hill, Hershenow, Borowiak, McCardell) (all 20:10-20) who made it to Nationals ran 20-40 seconds slower at OSU. Regarding the course record has there ever been a top athlete going for time on that course? I would bet the course record goes to very low 19s or maybe faster next year assuming good weather
Gans Creek hosted the MW regional in 2022. Looking at the top W, and neglecting OSU runners who were clearly not going for time, the top finishers (Feyan, Hill, Hershenow, Borowiak, McCardell) (all 20:10-20) who made it to Nationals ran 20-40 seconds slower at OSU. Regarding the course record has there ever been a top athlete going for time on that course? I would bet the course record goes to very low 19s or maybe faster next year assuming good weather
Agreed. I'm expecting it, especially since three high-level D1 meets will be held on the course in 2025.
Back to the Stanford men.
They have higher expectations as well, as spoken in L&L's latest Youtube video below.
Cole, L&L and mid-d guy Zane Bergen were the four guys who completed their 16-miler documented in this clip. Zane even gets a featured speakership. Another Niwot HS grad -- Stanford's had lots of them starting with Elise Cranny. Great at xc in hs but not so much so far in college. Finished 47th Friday morning as Stanford's 9th guy, so likely not the race he was expecting.
At the 8-minute mark, Thomas Boyden offers a rather blunt but accurate assessment of Stanford men's past fortunes:
Say the 10 best 1500m runners in the world run a 1k race. First place runs 2.16 and 10th 2.22.
Coincidentally, at my local athletics track there’s an 800m race. First place finishes is 2.15 and 10th runs 2.23.
Obviously if any of the runners in the local race raced against the elite 1500 runners, they would get smashed. But by your logic, they should stack up pretty well. Hell, if the 2.15 800m runner races the 2.16 1k runner, he would win.
Already Saturday and still only a few posts re: Missouri's Gans Creek Classic yesterday morning. Time to fix that.
Never heard of Gans Creek Classic? Neither had I until a few days ago.
Had been wondering why MO was awarded the 2025 NCAA Div I XC Championships. No history of having great t&f teams, much less being a distance powerhouse.
Turns out, the City of Columbia purchased a 320 acre parcel of farm/prairie land on the southeast end of town many years ago. Essentially a nature preserve. Called it the Gans Creek Recreation Area.
Have developed 50 acres so far. Highlight is the Gans Creek XC course which opened in September 2019. Hosted the 2021 SEC Champs and 2022 Midwest Regional along with the yearly early season Gans Creek Classic.
Huge starting line which accommodates over 40 teams. Slight downhill at start, gradual undulations throughout, then long slight uphill finish.
Very much looks like a flattened out version of OK State’s course which opened in 2019 as well. Both are well manicured, irrigated and well drained.
Thus, a very appealing choice for next year’s championship race.
And, today’ s times show that Gans Creek runs almost exactly the same as Nuttycombe.
1st place: 23:07.6/GC to 23:04/NC. Both course records. 50th place: 24:07.4/GC to 24:12.7/NC. 100th place: 24:36.7/GC to 24:40.8/NC.
Regarding the title of this thread.
Was hoping for good results from oft-injured Sprout, Boyden and N Topper . . . and got my wishes.
However, never expected such performances from true-frosh Bergeron, Koon & Dargan. They probably will be put in their places come NCAA 10k time, but loving what I see now.
So, how do we compare Stanford men today vs BYU men today?
Since the courses are both accurately measured at 8k, are both rolling with firm footing, weather was great, and competition was ok but nothing special for both teams, then we resort to that age-old go-to: spread analysis.
SU 1-5: 20 sec SU 1-7: 28 sec BYU 1-5: 39 sec BYU 1-7: 68 sec
Appears both teams ran all their best runners. Stanford certainly did . . . and got a sub-par performance from Robert DiDonato was only 10th man today with a time slower than a couple other Stanford guys in the Open race. DiDonato was 49th @ 2023 NCAAs but is slowly coming off a winter/spring injury so likely will move up the ranks quickly over the next couple months as his fitness improves.
And, of course, L&L got the breakout races they were looking for their entire freshman year.
Stanford looks to have three #1s in Cole, Lex & Leo with Thomas Boyden close behind. Quality depth better than most years going back to the 2003 super team.
Expecting Stanford to be in the mix with BYU, AR and NAU for 2nd, 3rd or 4th in next week's rankings.
Post Mortem: biggest surprise of the entire meet was winner Edward Bird/KY. 2nd year guy from England. Just won bronze at the World U20 champs last month. Prs of 7:59/3k and 13:51/5k. What a jump he's made. Revelation of the weekend.
SHOWS you know nothing about Mizzou Mid-D and Distance running!!
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"Comfort must not be expected by folks that go a pleasuring."
Some variance with poor results from #4 & #5, but overall, results suggest Stanford's top-5 are amongst the better NCAA D1 runners today with talent to reach AA status and top-20 finishes within reach.
That's spells podium to me.
This feels a little like Groundhog Day when discussing early season fast 8k's from Stanford.
Let's factor in snow, mud, rain and cold in Wisconsin come November. I think Stanford would be very happy with a 4th place finish at Nationals.
I also think that tough conditions are the only thing that could potentially undermine OKS' bid to dominate Nationals. BYU will certainly be lurking and ready to upset OKS with a strong last 2k.
As a Missouri coach who has been on that course a LOT, I have never heard that (and the times and GPS data I've seen do not support that). In state, the course is pretty widely regarded as one of the most accurate and best maintained. Last year at the state meet, they warned coaches about one soggy/muddy patch. We were nervous about it with the announcement they made and it was damp at best. They have a fantastic grounds crew.
The turns are super wide though. If you're bad at running tangents, you'll add distance on pretty quickly.
As a Missouri coach who has been on that course a LOT, I have never heard that (and the times and GPS data I've seen do not support that). In state, the course is pretty widely regarded as one of the most accurate and best maintained. Last year at the state meet, they warned coaches about one soggy/muddy patch. We were nervous about it with the announcement they made and it was damp at best. They have a fantastic grounds crew.
The turns are super wide though. If you're bad at running tangents, you'll add distance on pretty quickly.
kc runner, thx for posting.
Have been waiting for people who actually know the course well to comment.
As mentioned earlier, given the course was developed from raw land, no reason for it to be anything but accurate. Likely even a bit long if, as someone posted earlier, 30 meters were added on just to make sure.
Looks almost exactly like OK State's new course minus the steep hills, thus a bit quicker.
Great to learn nothing has changed to the course since its 2019 opening. Even WI's purpose-built Thomas Zimmer course was changed in 2018, thus invalidating performances up through that year for CR purposes.
Here is the course tour video (from Oct 2019, a month after opening):
Regarding high schools, looks like the boy's 5k CR is 14:51.9 set at last year's state meet. Would have thought Connor Burns would be the record holder. However, see he won his division race by over a minute in 15:01 a couple years back. Fastest time on Saturday was 15:02. So, a few national calibre runners from the Show Me state to keep tabs on come November.
This feels a little like Groundhog Day when discussing early season fast 8k's from Stanford.
Let's factor in snow, mud, rain and cold in Wisconsin come November. I think Stanford would be very happy with a 4th place finish at Nationals.
I also think that tough conditions are the only thing that could potentially undermine OKS' bid to dominate Nationals. BYU will certainly be lurking and ready to upset OKS with a strong last 2k.
I agree.
Especially given the strength of Ok State and, apparently at this time, Arkansas.
Believe BYU, NAU and Stanford will be battling it out that 3rd and final podium spot.
Stanford & NAU will face off against Arkansas at Pre-Nats. We'll find out then if Stanford's performance at Gans Creek was a red herring.
As a Missouri coach who has been on that course a LOT, I have never heard that (and the times and GPS data I've seen do not support that). In state, the course is pretty widely regarded as one of the most accurate and best maintained. Last year at the state meet, they warned coaches about one soggy/muddy patch. We were nervous about it with the announcement they made and it was damp at best. They have a fantastic grounds crew.
The turns are super wide though. If you're bad at running tangents, you'll add distance on pretty quickly.
kc runner, thx for posting.
Have been waiting for people who actually know the course well to comment.
As mentioned earlier, given the course was developed from raw land, no reason for it to be anything but accurate. Likely even a bit long if, as someone posted earlier, 30 meters were added on just to make sure.
Looks almost exactly like OK State's new course minus the steep hills, thus a bit quicker.
Great to learn nothing has changed to the course since its 2019 opening. Even WI's purpose-built Thomas Zimmer course was changed in 2018, thus invalidating performances up through that year for CR purposes.
Here is the course tour video (from Oct 2019, a month after opening):
Regarding high schools, looks like the boy's 5k CR is 14:51.9 set at last year's state meet. Would have thought Connor Burns would be the record holder. However, see he won his division race by over a minute in 15:01 a couple years back. Fastest time on Saturday was 15:02. So, a few national calibre runners from the Show Me state to keep tabs on come November.
Burns actually ran 14:57 at Gans Creek Classic the year he qualified for Nike. He was pushed in that one, but won his division at the state meet comfortably. Andrew Hauser ran 14:52 there the week before he won Nike Regionals in Terre Haute for another comparison.
For a frame of reference, we've found Gans to run about 20-30 sec. faster than Terre Haute over 5k most of the time. When Terre Haute has good weather and footing, the courses can run pretty close, but Terre Haute seems a lot more variable than Gans. I seriously don't know how the grounds crew does it at Gans - I've yet to see the course in bad shape and they are regularly hosting about 10 meets a fall out there.
Burns actually ran 14:57 at Gans Creek Classic the year he qualified for Nike. He was pushed in that one, but won his division at the state meet comfortably. Andrew Hauser ran 14:52 there the week before he won Nike Regionals in Terre Haute for another comparison.
For a frame of reference, we've found Gans to run about 20-30 sec. faster than Terre Haute over 5k most of the time. When Terre Haute has good weather and footing, the courses can run pretty close, but Terre Haute seems a lot more variable than Gans. I seriously don't know how the grounds crew does it at Gans - I've yet to see the course in bad shape and they are regularly hosting about 10 meets a fall out there.
Thx again for continued posting.
Having been to Laverne Gibson for a couple of NCAA XC Champs, certainly expect that course to run slower than all other college championship courses save possibly Greiner Family/OK State. Much of LG is run on the sides of hills while ascending or descending grades. Course not as wide throughout as Gans Creek. And -- at least last I saw -- LG course is just cut grass and dirt, not turf grass.
The latter is likely the reason why the Gans Creek course appears to be in pristine condition year around. If I understood correctly from the course tour video posted earlier, the Columbia P&R commentator mentioned that ryegrass, Kentucky bluegrass and Bermudagrass are rotated throughout the year -- ryegrass during winter, the other varieties during warmer seasons. And, the course is irrigated and contoured for drainage.
kc runner, hope you post something following the MO hs state meet. Will be watching.
Comparing the times of the top 15 runners from (early season) 2024 Gans Creek Classic to their times at Madison Zimmer, 10 ran Pre Nats 3 weeks after Gans Creek and averaged 14 seconds slower at Pre Nats (recall Zimmer was very fast that day as Kosgei broke 19). All of the top 15 from Gans Creek made it to Nationals and averaged 26 seconds slower there.
Moving on from the pointless debate about drugs and getting back to the racing I would like to know if Lutkenhaus is scheduled to race anywhere prior to the worlds, especially against an international field.
In 2024 the Zimmer Course had two races, the several-week early Invite and the PreNats. As a results there were al sorts of strategies and an important aspect was just racing on the NCAA course. So trying to make comparisons is too fraught with problems. And Nutty is about racing and beating teams and that sometimes leads to slower starts and harder finishes.
In 2024 the Zimmer Course had two races, the several-week early Invite and the PreNats. As a results there were al sorts of strategies and an important aspect was just racing on the NCAA course. So trying to make comparisons is too fraught with problems. And Nutty is about racing and beating teams and that sometimes leads to slower starts and harder finishes.
or, in this case as actually happened, the first 2K of Pre Nats for the 10 runners mentioned was a little faster than Gans Creek. Nationals was a touch slower other than Jepchirchir of Auburn who went out real fast (6:15) at Gans Creek (and then slowed a lot). I would also not expect the first major meet of the year to be a runner's fastest time, unless course or conditions influenced. And then there is the 2022 data for Regional vs National meet at OSU......This Gans Creek course is fast conditions permitting.
Appreciate this thread being revived as the 2025 xc season is almost upon us.
The MO website has a course tour video made in 2019 when the course was laid out.
One aspect of the course mentioned in the video is its width. It is always at least 10 meters wide. So, never any bunching going around turns. Don't believe any other course in the US was created with that feature.
Anticipate seeing a lot of times in the 22s for men and a few times in the 18s for women this fall.
Appreciate this thread being revived as the 2025 xc season is almost upon us.
The MO website has a course tour video made in 2019 when the course was laid out.
One aspect of the course mentioned in the video is its width. It is always at least 10 meters wide. So, never any bunching going around turns. Don't believe any other course in the US was created with that feature.
Anticipate seeing a lot of times in the 22s for men and a few times in the 18s for women this fall.
Ha, ha, recall Oklahoma State and a certain runner's positioning on the many turns? If you run wide on this course you can add a bit of distance too. This course also somewhat reminds me of the Huntsville Alabama course and we also know how fast that was/is.