I was measuring lactate in the early 80s. No lactate meters; we had to use other methods but lactate could be correlated against pace and heart rate (measured manually of course). All of this was done on a treadmill and then sessions were created to use the numbers outdoors. Adjustments had to be made but it was pretty accurate.
The best coaches have been incorporating some form of this double-speed day for more than half a century. The fact that Schumacher and Smith are just now folding that in over the past few years (Smith) or currently (Schumacher) tells me that they simply get the best athletes with the highest ceilings. But they might not be the best coaches out there.
Its well documented past 75 years Ethiopians\Kenyans doing daily triples. Lets not forget the weekly 30miler !
We did not need to test lactate back in the 70s, we knew. It's called listen to your internal feedback , which by the way ended up becoming lab verified. I would posit Igloi was coaching this training, Lydiard was doing this training , Stampf was also doing this training. Many years ago there was article on Warhurst using at Michigan. The Kenyans for decades. I know this is not the answer you seek, but it is not novel.
Never the less the legitimate conversations about this approach have been informative and worthwhile reading , especially those who have been kind enough to attach the research.
the East Germans were taking blood samples from Cierpinski's earlobe during training in the 1970s. Whenever I hear of a "new" scientific method of training I automatically assume PEDs
We did not need to test lactate back in the 70s, we knew. It's called listen to your internal feedback , which by the way ended up becoming lab verified. I would posit Igloi was coaching this training, Lydiard was doing this training , Stampf was also doing this training. Many years ago there was article on Warhurst using at Michigan. The Kenyans for decades. I know this is not the answer you seek, but it is not novel.
Never the less the legitimate conversations about this approach have been informative and worthwhile reading , especially those who have been kind enough to attach the research.
Wrong, there may be a correlation between RPE and lactate, but that's far from being a causation. Sometimes you can have a lower RPE and even lower HR but with a higher lactate value. Your body sometimes lies.
I enjoyed Karissa Schweizer's interview yesterday in the mixed zone. Her longtime Bowerman TC teammates Courtney Frerichs and Elise Cranny left BTC last year but Schweizer chose to stay. I was interested to hear her mention that Jerry Schumacher has started incorporating double thresold training with the team.
"Every year is different with Jerry. He's into long run workouts one year and then the next year, he's like oh we don't do that anymore. I like it though because it keeps you on your toes."
Interesting that Grant and Woody both leave to double T and shorten Jerry’s notoriously long sessions and then Jerry makes the adjustment anyway?
To be fair, Grant and Woody didn’t leave Bowerman to double T and shorten Jerry’s notoriously long sessions. They left because of the move to Eugene and the rigidity of Jerry’s system.
Interesting that Grant and Woody both leave to double T and shorten Jerry’s notoriously long sessions and then Jerry makes the adjustment anyway?
To be fair, Grant and Woody didn’t leave Bowerman to double T and shorten Jerry’s notoriously long sessions. They left because of the move to Eugene and the rigidity of Jerry’s system.
They left for those reasons of course. They also left because of Jerry doing that very thing for Jerry. His way or the highway. His lining his pockets. His making the pros fit into the college schedule. His not letting the athletes race.
the East Germans were taking blood samples from Cierpinski's earlobe during training in the 1970s. Whenever I hear of a "new" scientific method of training I automatically assume PEDs
That was to see if they had drugs in their system before racing not to check lactate levels.
There's a circular logic from old-school critics of the Norwegian approach:
A: Look at this great new training method that incorporates X, Y, and Z!
B: Bah, humbug. We've been doing X for centuries.
A: But you weren't doing Y and Z.
B: Y and Z don't matter, so we were effectively doing X, Y, and Z.
That's actually not how logic works. You may think that elements like lactate monitoring don't matter. And you may well be right! But whether or not it works, you weren't doing what Bakken was doing. Heck, I was doing double workouts more than two decades ago, one of which was usually a tempo run (basically from the Dellinger playbook), but that's not the same thing. It's similar, and shares some of the same goals... but so does virtually all training.
Jerry has produced some excellent results. But, to me, it is odd to hear a pro athlete saying the entire training program changes year over year. Is it a constant experiment? Some coaches do exactly the same thing year after year even down to specifics of individual workouts and have excellent results building on previous gains. Periodization is a great way to have different stimulus throughout the year. Changing the whole program each year might create constantly changing stimulus but might have a higher injury rate too since each time is new territory. But, I guess I haven't coached any Olympic medalsts.
This thread and the recent exodus from Bowerman makes me realize Jerry doesn’t know how to develop athletes. Bowerman is notorious for not letting athletes compete and I wonder if this is because he would rather them not know their fitness and just run workout after workout to not question is methods. He has gotten enough super talented athletes over the years to mask this. Shelby probably thought the only way to win on the world stage with a mediorce program was to start cheating. Also, why would en elite pro coach change his training plan based on mainstream training fads? You would think he would be confident in his program and methods to keep the ship straight. The coaching game has changed for sure in the US and for the better.
The best coaches have been incorporating some form of this double-speed day for more than half a century. The fact that Schumacher and Smith are just now folding that in over the past few years (Smith) or currently (Schumacher) tells me that they simply get the best athletes with the highest ceilings. But they might not be the best coaches out there.
Its well documented past 75 years Ethiopians\Kenyans doing daily triples. Lets not forget the weekly 30miler !
dats right m - and let's also not forget that for the last 150 years the Ugandans have been doin the daily quad thresholds 9 days per week. the results are starting to show.
To be fair, Grant and Woody didn’t leave Bowerman to double T and shorten Jerry’s notoriously long sessions. They left because of the move to Eugene and the rigidity of Jerry’s system.
Those are the same things in a sense with the Eugene move not helping things. The “rigidity” of Jerry’s system was not customizing workouts to fit athletes. Woody didn’t think running shorter versions of Grants sessions made sense. Grant wanted similar flexibility with his training and a way to fend off overtraining. What is double T good for? Using lactate testing and other metrics to have the workout be ideal for you and not overly taxing. Mike Smith and Mike Scannell are also part of the equation of course.