Ramzi? He got stripped of his gold medal from 2008 Beijing. He should have been stripped also out of his WCH 800-1500 double, alas, wasn´t.
And as for doping convictions for guys and gals from North Africa - the list is looong. An I count naturalized Spaniards, Belgians, etc., from Morocco as well. Lot´s of guys.
To state a few with Moroccan and Algerian flags by their names, look below. I stopped at the letter D. The stats are from this source - not that hard to look up:
The use of performance-enhancing drugs (doping in sport) is prohibited within the sport of athletics. Athletes who are found to have used such banned substances, whether through a positive drugs test, the biological passport...
For me, his last two races brought to mind Coe of 1981 putting huge gaps on the field at the end of his races. I find it odd that I have seen threads remarking on the stagnation of the 800m, and this guy runs a well-paced race in a time that guys were running over 40 years ago, and he must be doping. He ran 51.5 followed by 51.7. His 51.7 would have been 25.9 followed by 25.8, pretty much even. It looks like the kind of race Steve Cram was famous for.
To me, it's not strictly about the time over the last 100m, whether he ran even and everyone else was going backwards, or whatever else.
There's just a visual je ne sais quois you can observe in these types of guys. I knew it the moment I saw Amos and I knew it the moment I saw Sedjati.
I think this post sums it up nicely. Everything is in context of the specific race, run on that day, in that stadium.
For example analyzing Hoppels run in LA and looking at his splits - it just doesn't tell the whole picture. To the point of your post here, when you actually watch that particular race and see how it goes down - especially in the last 80, there is nothing about it that seems out of the ordinary. Hoppel is the best runner in the field, he pushes ahead of other quality runners and it's not easy but he does what the best guy should do.
Back to Stockholm, it's not really the final 200 or even final 100 that matters here - it's the final 70-75m. At this level to put 7-7.5 meters on the field in that space of time - he's not racing HS kids here. No it wasn't Hoppel, Pattison, Roberts best stuff - but it wasn't like they all totally capitulated. To put that amount of distance between you and that quality field at that point of the race? No chance. Just no chance.
Back to what we have seen in Ostrava and now Stockholm - this doesn't pass the eye test. The same way Amos never did, the same way Ramzi never did. The one thing that really raises the red flag is when you see guys under heavy duress (and you see it on their faces and with their form) that just seem to override that and muscle through it. Think about Amos (who was so ungainly and all over the place in the last 100 but could still run under 1.42). Ramzi and Sedjati are similar - their form starts getting angular and choppy and you seen see them struggling but they just bludgeon their way through it. I feel the same when I watch Korir with his head bobbing up and down and starting to lean backwards, but he "miraculously" maintains his turnover.
I couldn't agree more with your POV.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
To state a few with Moroccan and Algerian flags by their names, look below. I stopped at the letter D. The stats are from this source - not that hard to look up:
I think this post sums it up nicely. Everything is in context of the specific race, run on that day, in that stadium.
For example analyzing Hoppels run in LA and looking at his splits - it just doesn't tell the whole picture. To the point of your post here, when you actually watch that particular race and see how it goes down - especially in the last 80, there is nothing about it that seems out of the ordinary. Hoppel is the best runner in the field, he pushes ahead of other quality runners and it's not easy but he does what the best guy should do.
Back to Stockholm, it's not really the final 200 or even final 100 that matters here - it's the final 70-75m. At this level to put 7-7.5 meters on the field in that space of time - he's not racing HS kids here. No it wasn't Hoppel, Pattison, Roberts best stuff - but it wasn't like they all totally capitulated. To put that amount of distance between you and that quality field at that point of the race? No chance. Just no chance.
Back to what we have seen in Ostrava and now Stockholm - this doesn't pass the eye test. The same way Amos never did, the same way Ramzi never did. The one thing that really raises the red flag is when you see guys under heavy duress (and you see it on their faces and with their form) that just seem to override that and muscle through it. Think about Amos (who was so ungainly and all over the place in the last 100 but could still run under 1.42). Ramzi and Sedjati are similar - their form starts getting angular and choppy and you seen see them struggling but they just bludgeon their way through it. I feel the same when I watch Korir with his head bobbing up and down and starting to lean backwards, but he "miraculously" maintains his turnover.
I couldn't agree more with your POV.
See where you’re wrong is this “that quality” field stuff. The field was missing the top 2 in the world. Those 2 have been pretty well-separated from everyone else. It was missing Kinyamal, too. Robert and Pattison have not looked good this season. Arop vs Hoppel at adidas’ street meet and the indoor 1,000 were comical mismatches. Hoppel closed in 26.8 and 13.5 here. These are bad closing splits and he acknowledged he didn’t run well. I know you also think Moula didn’t pass the eye test. Well the guy also couldn’t get a medal? Maybe our eye test got to thinking being in 1:43.5 shape was the physical peak. I don’t see much weird at all about Sedjatis form. The pulling away is what gets you but when the entire field rigs that’s misleading.
So what? The poster ParisianbGold stated that there was only 1 Algerian doper - there are many, as we can see. And also that there wasn't a case when North African was stripped off of medal from OG or WCH. There was. That was my point, nothing else. He was pulling his statements out of his ass. Not many long distance runners from the US on that list. There are some, but Moroccan mid and long distance runners are represented disproportianally more often for the size of their nation.
And in same list you have more that two times cases of US+Canada
Well maybe but it's not really relevant to this discussion. It's not Bryce Hoppel or even Marco Arop out there putting 7 meters on a world class field in the final 70 meters of a race is it?
I'm confused by this logic/narrative here - you think the people here "interested" in Sedjati are the same ones beating the drums of innocence for an American athlete like say, Shelby Houlihan? Because what, you think all the whities believe bullsh-t burrito stories and are just after the North Africans?
See where you’re wrong is this “that quality” field stuff. The field was missing the top 2 in the world. Those 2 have been pretty well-separated from everyone else. It was missing Kinyamal, too. Robert and Pattison have not looked good this season. Arop vs Hoppel at adidas’ street meet and the indoor 1,000 were comical mismatches. Hoppel closed in 26.8 and 13.5 here. These are bad closing splits and he acknowledged he didn’t run well. I know you also think Moula didn’t pass the eye test. Well the guy also couldn’t get a medal? Maybe our eye test got to thinking being in 1:43.5 shape was the physical peak. I don’t see much weird at all about Sedjatis form. The pulling away is what gets you but when the entire field rigs that’s misleading.
Didn't Rudisha close in 26.7 for his WR? Hoppel was fading but not that much
Reminded me of Makhloufi's close in 2012, admittedly in a 1500
And in same list you have more that two times cases of US+Canada
Well maybe but it's not really relevant to this discussion. It's not Bryce Hoppel or even Marco Arop out there putting 7 meters on a world class field in the final 70 meters of a race is it?
I'm confused by this logic/narrative here - you think the people here "interested" in Sedjati are the same ones beating the drums of innocence for an American athlete like say, Shelby Houlihan? Because what, you think all the whities believe bullsh-t burrito stories and are just after the North Africans?
Interesting victim mindset.
Tired: Pretty much everyone is doping to some extent at the top levels
Wired: Northern African countries are actually the cleanest athletes in terms of PED usage according to this wikipedia page
I think this post sums it up nicely. Everything is in context of the specific race, run on that day, in that stadium.
For example analyzing Hoppels run in LA and looking at his splits - it just doesn't tell the whole picture. To the point of your post here, when you actually watch that particular race and see how it goes down - especially in the last 80, there is nothing about it that seems out of the ordinary. Hoppel is the best runner in the field, he pushes ahead of other quality runners and it's not easy but he does what the best guy should do.
Back to Stockholm, it's not really the final 200 or even final 100 that matters here - it's the final 70-75m. At this level to put 7-7.5 meters on the field in that space of time - he's not racing HS kids here. No it wasn't Hoppel, Pattison, Roberts best stuff - but it wasn't like they all totally capitulated. To put that amount of distance between you and that quality field at that point of the race? No chance. Just no chance.
Back to what we have seen in Ostrava and now Stockholm - this doesn't pass the eye test. The same way Amos never did, the same way Ramzi never did. The one thing that really raises the red flag is when you see guys under heavy duress (and you see it on their faces and with their form) that just seem to override that and muscle through it. Think about Amos (who was so ungainly and all over the place in the last 100 but could still run under 1.42). Ramzi and Sedjati are similar - their form starts getting angular and choppy and you seen see them struggling but they just bludgeon their way through it. I feel the same when I watch Korir with his head bobbing up and down and starting to lean backwards, but he "miraculously" maintains his turnover.
I couldn't agree more with your POV.
See where you’re wrong is this “that quality” field stuff. The field was missing the top 2 in the world. Those 2 have been pretty well-separated from everyone else. It was missing Kinyamal, too. Robert and Pattison have not looked good this season. Arop vs Hoppel at adidas’ street meet and the indoor 1,000 were comical mismatches. Hoppel closed in 26.8 and 13.5 here. These are bad closing splits and he acknowledged he didn’t run well. I know you also think Moula didn’t pass the eye test. Well the guy also couldn’t get a medal? Maybe our eye test got to thinking being in 1:43.5 shape was the physical peak. I don’t see much weird at all about Sedjatis form. The pulling away is what gets you but when the entire field rigs that’s misleading.
TL - it's still a diamond league field mate. The slowest runner in that field had a 1.44.47 PR. And maybe Mr Sedjati was somehow the only guy in shape and up for that race yesterday, but guys of that level don't all have bad days and look like club level 800m guys.
I think what we aren't aligned on here is how difficult it is to put that much distance on a field in that amount of time at this level of competition. You might have to trust me on this one that I could have some practical experience of that. Also running under 27.0 seconds for the final 200m of this level of race isn't a bad closing split - where does that come from? It's not his best but it's sure as heck not bad.
And on the form topic - well will have to agree to disagree. And with all due respect quite a few people seem to be seeing something so at what point might it be you that could be missing something? Respectfully.
You can't tell who isn't and is doping by looking at them. Completely ridiculous.
Let me give you a tip, you'll find you target johnny foreigner while assuming the "butter wouldn't melt in their mouth" white boys are obviously all good.
The difference with white boys and black boys, is white boys are much better at lying, faking, acting etc. It's why we make such good politicans/diplomats/lawyers. We are good at lying through our teeth while sounding like Posh Jesus.
There's a strong argument that human intelligence grew out of the battle between deception and anti-deception.
The many Kenyans getting done are probably quite stupid, and have bad advice and weaker "PED anti-detection teams". White boys in my home UK will have the best money can buy, and likely state support (take that Putin!). But all dressed up with that suave speaking poshness, that is the real proof your innocent.
Nobody, literally nobody, can be trusted to not be doping! And that includes the authorities who have their own incentives for covering stuff up.
In summation the world is filled with deception and lies, nobody is likely who you think they are! Good luck!
You can't tell who isn't and is doping by looking at them. Completely ridiculous.
Let me give you a tip, you'll find you target johnny foreigner while assuming the "butter wouldn't melt in their mouth" white boys are obviously all good.
The difference with white boys and black boys, is white boys are much better at lying, faking, acting etc. It's why we make such good politicans/diplomats/lawyers. We are good at lying through our teeth while sounding like Posh Jesus.
There's a strong argument that human intelligence grew out of the battle between deception and anti-deception.
The many Kenyans getting done are probably quite stupid, and have bad advice and weaker "PED anti-detection teams". White boys in my home UK will have the best money can buy, and likely state support (take that Putin!). But all dressed up with that suave speaking poshness, that is the real proof your innocent.
Nobody, literally nobody, can be trusted to not be doping! And that includes the authorities who have their own incentives for covering stuff up.
In summation the world is filled with deception and lies, nobody is likely who you think they are! Good luck!
This is the writing of Thomas Pynchon on methamphetamine without a college education.
1) You can't tell who is and isn't doping just by looks. Mostly true. But there has been a long history of dopers pulling away from world class fields with sloppy form.
2) I don't think anyone here is assuming "white boys are obviously all good." I laughed at Shelby. I was always suspicious of Rupp. I will laugh at Sedjati when we hear his excuse.
3) Nobody can be trusted not to be doping, including authorities. I'll definitely agree there.
See where you’re wrong is this “that quality” field stuff. The field was missing the top 2 in the world. Those 2 have been pretty well-separated from everyone else. It was missing Kinyamal, too. Robert and Pattison have not looked good this season. Arop vs Hoppel at adidas’ street meet and the indoor 1,000 were comical mismatches.
100% agree. It can only be called a quality field if these names are in it:
You can't tell who isn't and is doping by looking at them. Completely ridiculous.
Let me give you a tip, you'll find you target johnny foreigner while assuming the "butter wouldn't melt in their mouth" white boys are obviously all good.
The difference with white boys and black boys, is white boys are much better at lying, faking, acting etc. It's why we make such good politicans/diplomats/lawyers. We are good at lying through our teeth while sounding like Posh Jesus.
There's a strong argument that human intelligence grew out of the battle between deception and anti-deception.
The many Kenyans getting done are probably quite stupid, and have bad advice and weaker "PED anti-detection teams". White boys in my home UK will have the best money can buy, and likely state support (take that Putin!). But all dressed up with that suave speaking poshness, that is the real proof your innocent.
Nobody, literally nobody, can be trusted to not be doping! And that includes the authorities who have their own incentives for covering stuff up.
In summation the world is filled with deception and lies, nobody is likely who you think they are! Good luck!
This is the writing of Thomas Pynchon on methamphetamine without a college education.
1) You can't tell who is and isn't doping just by looks. Mostly true. But there has been a long history of dopers pulling away from world class fields with sloppy form.
2) I don't think anyone here is assuming "white boys are obviously all good." I laughed at Shelby. I was always suspicious of Rupp. I will laugh at Sedjati when we hear his excuse.
3) Nobody can be trusted not to be doping, including authorities. I'll definitely agree there.
No idea about the Pynchon reference but definitely an addict. But have college degree, their not proof of much. Can hardly string a sentence together. Where do the commas go again?
Nothing is "for sure" in the 800 😃 Dominant athletes finish off the podium all the time -- Abukaker Kaki went from Silver in 2011 to 7th in 2012, Clayton Murphy went from Olympic bronze in 2016 to not making the team the next, Makhloufi hasn't really competed since 2019, Emmanuel Korir won in 2022 and was eliminated in the heats in 2023...and so on.
Sedjati's clearly in 1:42-mid shape, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise that he can pull away from a field in the last 200. He's also been a 1:43 guy for three years now and ran 1:43.06 in Eugene last year, so this isn't a complete overnight transformation.
That said... easy to see why final 200s in Ostrava and Stockholm raised eyebrows. Moula was the Algerian who was supposed to have the elite closing speed— he ran 45.9 as a junior. You'd expect Sedjati to have flashed this talent before, but he has zero listed results prior to 2021. I dunno.
The real test is gonna come when he races Arop and Wanyonyi— if he outclasses them too, then that'll really raise some red flags.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.