Isn't it time they burned the hs rulebook and started over?

Snyde Clyde wrote:

DQ was improper wrote:

There is a major difference between an implement landing outside the sector lines and a uniform violation. There is no comparison.

I did not realize t&f officials had the prerogative of deciding which rules to enforce and which to ignore. Live and learn.

performance rules are completely objective. athletes running the wrong course or throwing outside of the bounds is a performance rule, and the disqualification is clear. interference rules are based on the judgement of the official. for example, if a runner's stride was affected by another running breaking in, although the rule is clear that cutting in too early is illegal, it's up to an official to observe and identify the interference.

the way the current rules read, uniform violations are pretty objective, but maybe that's unecessary. why can't the officials interpret uniform violations as an issue of interference, and thus only dq based on whether or not it was interefering with another athlete or if it's a safety violation? i think this would be an improvement to t&f officiating.

Snyde Clyde wrote:

DQ was improper wrote:

There is a major difference between an implement landing outside the sector lines and a uniform violation. There is no comparison.

I did not realize t&f officials had the prerogative of deciding which rules to enforce and which to ignore. Live and learn.

But you were aware that in every other major sport officials use this prerogative on every play, right? You have seen a football/basketball/baseball game, or a soccer match, right?

Remember that the rules committee can alter rules for the meet and overrule the official. Maybe the coach should take it up with them.

Uniform uniformity wrote:

Question: what are the uniform rules for football? Basketball? Can you wear jewelry in wrestling?

Can't say, but I can tell you that I'm not worried about the kid from Fugowee HS slicing up my quarter miler with that stud in his ear. I can also say I'm pretty sure that basketball and football players don't have to wear the same underwear. Many of the shorts produced by companies now have built in briefs. the kids are getting wise to the fact that they're being asked to wear the same underwear that some kids have already worn for 5 or 6 years. so many school tell them to buy their own shorts but they must be black, red, navy, orange whatever. That shouldn't automatically be a rule violation.

Dr. E wrote:

DQ was improper wrote:

I can see a couple HS kids sitting at the lunch table:

Kid #1: "I think I'm going to go out for track this Spring."

Kid #2: "No, man, you don't want to do that. I got DQ'ed from a meet last year just because I had a stripe on the tights I wore under my uniform. That stupid rule prevented me from running in the conference meet last year. I could have won!"

Kid #1: "Are you serious? That's dumb. I guess I'll play baseball instead."

And with that, we just lost another potential track athlete.

You have quite an imagination. Give me a break! Your scenario is close to 100% unlikely. This is no more likely to happen for track than it will for baseball.

Wrong. In 32 years of coaching I have seen this scenario numerous times. Saw a top sprinter quit the sport on the spot because he sat for 6.5 hours waiting for his 60m dash. The clerk then screwed up and told the kid the wrong heat. The meet director refused to let him run in another heat. Bang. gone.

DQ was improper wrote:

I officiate high school meets and, unless their is a gross violation, I do not disqualify the athlete....By the way, in championship meets, I WILL disqualify an athlete but will always try to give him/her a chance to rectify the situation before a DQ results.

Why the difference? It seems many here believe it is okay for an official to overlook small violations of the uniform rule. Is that only for dual meets, or for all meets? It seems a little hypocritical of this official to look the other way at one meet, but DQ someone at another meet for the same infraction. Comments?

As a coach and a certifed official it has always been my philosophy that the dual meets should introduce the athlete to the sport. As you get into the league championship that should be your dress rehearsal for the state meets and so on. First meet of the season I don't have a singlet for that 380lb shot putter that showed up on day 3 of practice, they better not disqualify him from the first meet. Ten weeks down the line, I better have a uniform, an alternative or a dispensation lined up. I don't think that's so hard to understand. I would not allow that jav throw that landed 8 feet outside the sector to count at any time. Am I picking and choosing what rules to enforce? Yes.

Not afraid to admit it and I would think most coaches wouldn't have a problem with it.

Snyde Clyde wrote:

Why the difference? It seems many here believe it is okay for an official to overlook small violations of the uniform rule.

I not only believe it's okay, I think it's imperative. To seek out ticky-tack uniform violations is to be a jackass.

The uniform rules are probably necessary to prohibit jokester kids from wearing hula skirts, kilts, or some such (thus the "school issued" rules) that would diminish the competition. But for chrissakes, if a kid is appropriately dressed for competition in his team's colors, why does anybody care what brand his shorts are or if they have stripes or whether he has a St. Christopher medal or a t-shirt under his singlet?

No athlete has ever felt he was put at a competitive disadvantage by another athlete's t-shirt. No coach has ever felt an he lost a meet because of the color of an opponent's shorts.

You didn't answer the question. Why treat an athlete differently at different meets?

Whoever space ghost is I wish he had been a meet offical at a meet I was at in High School. I still to this day HATE any and all USATF track and field meet officals. I am convinced every single last one of them is an ass who feels the need to prove his or her superiority over some teenage kids by threatening to DQ the athlete or have them expelled from meets for no other reason. You want to know a rule I really hate, besides uniform rules? Why is it when you go to a big invite and lets say you are running the 1600 or 3200 the meet officals keep you in one small area so that you can't warm up. You have to warm up almost an hour early so you can get there and stand around, because the officals don't want you jogging around or moving, they want you to sit there and get cold? Did the people who wrote the rulebook never compete in track and field or something?

My complaint is that the uniform rule is not enforced uniformly (no pun intended). Some officials call it and others dont. It's a dumb rule so can't we just get rid of it. The jewlery rule too. Either enforce them all the time or get rid of them. Its too confusing.

Snyde Clyde wrote:

You didn't answer the question. Why treat an athlete differently at different meets?

I thought Ray already answered this. If you have to ask the question, you are probably the kind of pain-in-the-ass official the rest of us hate dealing with.

But here are a couple examples:

If an official thinks he needs to check that all shorts match on a "C" 4 x 400 relay in a rinky-dink dual meet that may feature a shot putter in sweat pants on the 3rd leg, and he's going to enforce that rule by DQing the relay, when there is absolutely nothing at stake except giving kids some experience, then I think this official is an idiot who just enjoys asserting power.

Small meets exist to give kids experience and to allow them chances to improve. Team scores matter little if at all. To DQ a kid over nonsense violations THAT DO NOT AFFECT COMPETITION and deny him/her the opportunity for experience is ridiculous. Any coach or official who insists on doing so is a pea-brain.

At a state meet, say, you do need more rules to govern behavior. For example, coaches can't be allowed free reign around the infield at a state meet because there are too many of them--it would be chaos down there. There are also usually awards given out on the infield, etc. But to tell coaches they must stay in the stands for a dual meet, or even an 8 team conference championship, is just a restriction for restriction's sake.

I've wasted too much time on this. So long.

The jewelry rule most certainly has merit. I saw a meet where a girl, wearing a hoop earing, has an unbalanced and falling down runner hook here finger into the hoop, tearing off her ear lobe. Those types of things DO happen. While a "stud" earing may not hurt anyone, only a blanket rule will cover all possible scenario's.

Past coaches are to blame for the uniform rule. Allowing their athletes to compete in multi-colored attire, looking like a bunch of clowns. Is our sport to be taken seriously? I've had a lot more kids quit because of how our sport is presented. Football type kids who want to try to sprint, or put the shot, and at our first meet they see the "carnival" that can be track. They look around and say "I don't want to be a part of this joke"!

The reason the uniform rule must be applied is because of coaches who don't expect their kids to follow standards, and because of kids who try to get away with breaking the rule. I'm from CT, and I'm glad the rule was applied. I've seen too many times relay teams approach the line with three kids with uniforms, and a fourth with big, huge baggy shorts, hanging off their hips (also against federation rules), falling below their knees. Correct color? yes!! Looking like a jack-ass? yes!! Making our sport a joke? yes!!

Which rules should we pick Ray? Thank god for the no false start rule .... finally eliminating all those cheating coaches teaching their sprinters to try to catch a flier. Six separates start per heat .... now that will drive more than a few kids from our sport. Even the IAAF realized they had to deal with the problem. So I think that rule is solid, as are most if not all of the current rules. Rules are not arbitrary, officials need to call them, call them ALL the time.

But as a side note ... it's too bad that the clerk or referee or whoever misapplied the rule; that's worse than having a bad rule.

Snyde Clyde wrote:

You didn't answer the question. Why treat an athlete differently at different meets?

Because there is a difference between meaningless dual meets and state championships.

Do I need to explain that one to you, as well?

subway dude wrote:

Snyde Clyde wrote:

You didn't answer the question. Why treat an athlete differently at different meets?

Because there is a difference between meaningless dual meets and state championships.

Do I need to explain that one to you, as well?

Yeah, we shouldn't apply driving laws on lousy old back streets in small towns, only on major state roads and highways. What the hell kind of logic is that? How are kids supposed to learn what to do at the state meet?

You all realize that this issue is mainly a COACHING problem, don't you? Lazy coaches who don't hold their kids to standards wind up having uniform violations. End of story.

They learn what to do at the state meet by running in invitationals.

The vast majority of high school track athletes are not going to see the state meet, a lot of you seem to be forgetting this. For the non-elite, it is all about having the oppurtunity to compete.

Ray,

I coach in CT and know that for the most part, the officials don't know the rules and seek advice of the "timer" for their decisions. Something that ironically, the rule book does not allow for. This is a problem. However, if a coach enforces uniform and jewelry rules during dual meets, kids are dq'd there and learn their lesson. This is the same for the false start rule which many starters are hesitant to call in a "meaningless" dual meet. It's a coach's choice; do you want your kids tossed in a dual or in a championship? Of course if you do your job and read the rule book, they won't be dq'd at all. Yes, the national meets not run under NFHSS rules are more enjoyable and better for the kids. Some rules are power plays and should be changed. However, everyone steps to the line with the same rules and it is not an official's fault a coach lined up a team with illegal uniforms or allowed their kid to wear jewelry. That is the coach's responsibility. By the way, if you really want to see a travesty in Connecticut, stand at the 300 meter starting line and watch the lane violations that AREN'T called during the 300's the 4x2's and the 4x4's. I counted at least one per race at class and Open.

The Street wrote:

Yeah, we shouldn't apply driving laws on lousy old back streets in small towns, only on major state roads and highways. What the hell kind of logic is that?

Okay, this terrible analogy pulled me back in the fray. Driving laws are SAFETY rules. So, yes, in a dual meet, there should be nobody in the sector of the discus except officials.

But if there was a driving law that said all cars on the interstate need to be freshly waxed so that the interstate has a nice appearance, then, no we should not enforce that rule on lousy old backroads where nobody cares.

Now I'm really done. Good luck to all this season. Even officials.

This is an excellent discussion.

Most people don't like rules of any kind, but they are obviosuly needed.

Rules are created for the following reasons:

1. Safety

2. Fairness of Competition

3. Event/Meet Management & Logistics

4. Marketing and Promotion of the Sport (needed more at the national and international level).

The rules of our sport are constantly evolving. Many bright men and women have been working on them for years. The good news is that they are still evolving. I am proud to say that the USATF and the IAAF are constantly reviewing the rules. The USATF Rules Committee meets every year at our National Convention. All are welcomed to participate. Everyone has a voice. Last year the IAAF Technical Committee reviewed nearly 300 proposed rule changes.

If you are unhappy with a rule, become part of the system and help get it changed.

In regards to how rules are applied, I feel that (as many have mentioned) that a good official will apply rules appropriately for the level of the competition. A middle school or high school dual meet is a learning oppertunity for athletes, coaches, and officials. It's the job of the officials and coaching staff to prepare the particpants for future competitions. There are justified reasons for all of the rules. All athletes need to learn the rules. Knowledge is power.

For example: Two weeks ago at the WIC in Moscow Walter Davis was competing in the triple jump. He had a great leap in the high 17 m range. The official in the pit began to mark what appeared to be an hand mark closer to the board. Walter immediately knew that it wasn't his mark (it was a mark from the previous jumper) and went to the head judge and made a protest. The head judge did the correct thing and ordered that both marks be measured. The shorter mark was first posted 17.30m. An evaluation of the video showed Davis was correct. The corrected measurement was posted - 17.73m - the gold medal. Walter did the right thing.

David Katz

USATF Rules Committee

IAAF Technical Committee