So to answer some questions. I do 5x2k in the morning at <2.0 mmol. I take 30 second rest on the 400’s and 60 seconds the 1km reps. How would low lactate mean I’m overtraining? Wouldn’t high lactate mean I’m overtraining?
Stop doing double thresholds for a while and go faster at the reps 3.5-4.0 mmol and see what happens.I bet you will get a fast positive result.1-2 threshold intervals per week is enough and perfect.
Probably don't do this. If you are half as well trained as some of your runs suggest your threshold is likely down below 3.5 and this suggested workout is more of an anaerobic power workout for you that you'd do when peaking.
Have you run any longer races recently? What are your PRs on a 5k or 10k?
I haven’t ran any big races recently. I did a tatical 3k where we went through 2k in 6:00 and 2400m in 7:13. I kicked the last 400 and did 8:43 with a 58 last 400. That’s all the results I have from this past indoor season.
So you’re running “tempo” at 10s slower / kilometer than 3k pace. Maybe 12-14s slower than a non-tactical race: it’s insane to run what you’re running. You’ll be burned out by April
1. What lactate meter are you using? There's a known difference between Lactate Plus and Lactate Pro: Lactate Pro (Europe) reads higher so those with a Lactate Plus (USA) will need to set targets about 0.5 mmol lower than what Jakob and Bakken use.
2. My first thought was overtraining too. I'm not well enough versed on the science of it to explain why, but it's well-known that lactate levels will be low when overtrained. Google it and you will even find studies on it. How is your sleep? Mood? How is your training and energy level?
3. You should do a threshold test with longer reps. 6 minutes would be much better than 4 minutes. Length of rest will matter less too because you should get to a steady lactate level at 6 minutes.
4. When are you testing during the 400s and 1000s sessions? If too early, the lactate levels won't be settled yet. I wouldn't test the 400s until after the 8th rep at the earliest (or midway) and then once you're done. For the 1000s, at least the 2nd but probably midway and again once you're done.
Jakob is running some of his threshold sessions (10 x 1 km) at 2:40 min/km pace with 2.0 in lactate. Almgren is doing 10 x 3 min at 2:48 min/km with roughly 3,0-3,5 in lactate. If you do a lot of threshold training - and do it correctly - you threshold pace for short intervals is going to be really fast - and it wont feel as easy as it did when you started doing threshold based training.
Thanks! I talked to a low 3:30 person though and he said I’m running at the paces that he’s running at, so is everyone’s threshold profile completely different?
Thanks! I talked to a low 3:30 person though and he said I’m running at the paces that he’s running at, so is everyone’s threshold profile completely different?
Yes. (Well, some are not so different, and other are very different.)
Thanks! I talked to a low 3:30 person though and he said I’m running at the paces that he’s running at, so is everyone’s threshold profile completely different?
Consider the following template of a 3:30 runner off of a "4 second rule". You'll see roughly your training paces show up below.
Pace rules aren't laws of physics, and they're not even individualized lactate testing. They aren't meant to predict performance, either, but they serve as a good starting gauge to compare workouts and intensity levels across talent gaps. That is, I've found identifying what "gear" an athlete is training in is much more helpful and translatable than a % of effort.
Now, for a less developed HS runner, we might apply a 5-second rule; and the best Olympians beat out a 3-second rule, but for you as a 3:56 1500m runner, let's try a 4-second rule:
If you were to try double threshold off of 80-ish miles/per week, I would try something like:
Tuesday AM 4x1800m@83s/400m (~6:13 duration) 60" rest PM 8x900m@79s/400m (~2:58 duration) 60" rest Thursday AM [same as above] PM 20x300m@75s/400m (~56s duration) 30" rest
Better to translate workbouts by time rather than distance when drawing from elites. I also reset to 80% volume by time to account for less than 100mi/wk.
Those recommending training by feel or getting individualized lactic testing are also well worth listening to. But if you need a starting point to calibrate your training, I'd try playing with or around the paces I suggest above. If threshold on singles, longer bouts would stay at the theoretical HM pace.
You've built up your aerobic capacity at the expense of your anaerobic capacity. Your lactate threshold (LT2) is at a much higher percentage of your VO2max than your teamates. You need to push your anaerobic capacity up, this will help to make the paces feel easier but also create more room for your aerobic system to grow.
To test your anaerobic capacity, run all out for 10 to 90 seconds. Then sit down and test your lactate every minute or two until the lactate starts to drop. (stay sitting while testing). Note the highest lactate reading you get. Have your teammates do the same and compare. My guess is that yours will be the lowest by quite a bit.
The trick to training is balancing these two systems for the events you race, you want higher anaerobic capacity for shorter races (800, 1500, 5K) and less as the distances get longer.
Long story short, you need add some anaerobic capacity work.
Yo thanks man! I’ve decided I’m going to run harder on my X session now. I’ve done some more research and talked with my coach and you’re right. I’m doing 12x300 at 44 seconds tomorrow. Really appreciate the answer. Thanks!
Yesterday I did 2x5x300 off 2 min at 43 avg for the first set and 42 avg for the second set. Did 3x200 after in 27 avg. lactate after the first set of 300’s was 8.0 mmol and 15.7 mmol after the second set of 300’s. Overall I worked quite hard! I think I’ll keep doing the double thresholds 2 times a week but will hit a fast, hard track workout on Saturday’s. Is this a good plan?
Lactate threshold pace can be estimated pretty accurately just by using the VDOT tables and paying attention to your breathing. Start out with 25-30sec/mile slower than 5k pace.
Yesterday I did 2x5x300 off 2 min at 43 avg for the first set and 42 avg for the second set. Did 3x200 after in 27 avg. lactate after the first set of 300’s was 8.0 mmol and 15.7 mmol after the second set of 300’s. Overall I worked quite hard! I think I’ll keep doing the double thresholds 2 times a week but will hit a fast, hard track workout on Saturday’s. Is this a good plan?
That’s basically what the Ingebritsens do (x2 double thresholds and one harder ‘X’ factor workout, though it’s done on hills most of the year. I would ease into the X factor workouts if you are going to include it in your training or at least consider doing it on hills to decrease injury and/or overtraining risk.
So to answer some questions. I do 5x2k in the morning at <2.0 mmol. I take 30 second rest on the 400’s and 60 seconds the 1km reps. How would low lactate mean I’m overtraining? Wouldn’t high lactate mean I’m overtraining?
Why you do lactate testing, without knowing anything about it?
So to answer some questions. I do 5x2k in the morning at <2.0 mmol. I take 30 second rest on the 400’s and 60 seconds the 1km reps. How would low lactate mean I’m overtraining? Wouldn’t high lactate mean I’m overtraining?
Why you do lactate testing, without knowing anything about it?
Seems to be a new trend here on LRC.
Why are you being unpleasant like that instead of answering his questions or shutting up?
I was doing a X factor workout before but it was more reps at slower pace eg: 2x8-9x300 at 1500 pace or 2x6x400 at 1500 pace. I did hills as my X factor this XC season
I was doing a X factor workout before but it was more reps at slower pace eg: 2x8-9x300 at 1500 pace or 2x6x400 at 1500 pace. I did hills as my X factor this XC season
2x9x300 at 1500 is nowhere near what they do
Are you so dumb you see no difference between 2x10x200 at 3000 and this?
As stated earlier - the 300's were a similar session that the Ingebrigtsens were doing -2 x 5x 300 (90sec rec?). They were doing 41-42sec if I recall. Which is close to their 1500m pace (3.30 is 42). Don't get ahead of yourself - if your PR is 3.56 (63's), that is 47sec for 300m, not 43!! I believe that you shouldn't want to get too far away from Date Pace (current ability) and need to be careful how much Goal pace work that you do. Even if your goal pace is 3.45 (still a big jump from 3.56), that is 45's.
It is one of the reasons that Gjert wanted them to slow down, especially Henrik, that it was getting too fast for the training period, even though they were racing indoors - where do they go from there. Perhaps he was being too cautious, but with Henrik's injury issues I think he was correct.
So to answer some questions. I do 5x2k in the morning at <2.0 mmol. I take 30 second rest on the 400’s and 60 seconds the 1km reps. How would low lactate mean I’m overtraining? Wouldn’t high lactate mean I’m overtraining?
Why you do lactate testing, without knowing anything about it?
Seems to be a new trend here on LRC.
Lexel is the same poster who has claimed professionals have a hard time monitoring their effort and pace, and that's why HR zone training is the best type of training for most people. So take what they say with a grain of salt.