Europe is going to start to blow past the US in track and field.
In reality, maybe 5 college distance runners per year get a shot at running pro. Lots sign deals but few actually provide healthcare and a salary.
I think the US could have tons of great half marathon/ marathoners but too few keep running post college.
In the US you leave with student debt, lack of health insurance where in a lot of European countries one or both of these are provided by the state.
Funny these types of posts are downvoted because there is some truth to it. Less financial burden equals more freedom in your 20s. Heck, I didn't have to worry about student debt and health insurance and was able to work some fun jobs for a few years until I wanted to make more than $15/hour on a seasonal basis. I would not run as much as I do now if I did not have health insurance.
And yet Americans have more WMM podium finishes and global medals in the marathon than Sweden (and probably most countries) in the past 20 years. Too much focus on times which come from going to specific time trial races rather than beating people at meaningful races.
This post was edited 48 seconds after it was posted.
There was another thread here not too long ago asking a similar question about US runners and our half marathon record and why no one seems to be making a concerted effort to break it. To get a real answer here we'd probably need to know what sort of incentive there would be for runners capable of breaking the record to take some real shots.
I remember writing that the half marathon is kind of an orphan event, i.e., it's not contested in the Worlds or Olympics, meets that are real focal points for our best people who maybe don't want to arrange their training and racing schedules to maximize their potential at a half marathon. I have to believe that the financial incentives to post a really fast time in the marathon or the 5,000 and 10,000 are bigger than they are for the half marathon. You'd have to see some actual contracts to answer this definitively but I suspect you're correct about contracts having performance bonus clauses but maybe they have bigger bonuses for fast but non record times at the Olympic distances than they have for a record performance in the half marathon. In professional sports if you're trying to figure out why athletes do Thing A instead of Thing B the answer is almost always because they believe there's a better payoff from Thing A.
I know the true financial situation of one pro runner- it's not based off of guessing, I was involved with their going pro (just off of my relationship with this runner).
Based on this (and their times relative to other pros) I think runners make more than what a lot of people think but it's still not a fortune.
This particular person gets a base salary that is enough to live on, although frugally, plus a small amounts of "extra" money from various sources.
This person is part of one of the many running groups around the country.
I think this person would have more extra money coming in if they ran more road races in the 10k-half marathon range with an eye to the marathon sooner rather than later.
I can't imagine that the prize money in the indoor circuit is all that substantial- because there are so many events to pay out.
Do you think it's still possible to win decent money racing in the 10k to half marathon range? Last fall I had a Kenyan friend staying with us for six weeks. He's not at all a big name and he was hoping to do what the B Level Kenyans of years ago did, i.e., win money at "second tier" races in that 10k to half marathon range. This was in the fall in New England, surely one of the most fertile racing seasons and venues in the country. I basically was his agent, scouting out money races, getting comped entries, making travel and lodging plans, etc.
And you know what? There were very few races in that range that offered prize money and the ones that did normally only paid to third place in the open divisions and first in the masters'. There was one that went to fifth and third in the open and masters' respectively and the BAA Half went to tenth in the open and fifth in the master's', far and away the most lucrative of the lot.
In the other races the drop off from first to third was dramatic. Third place money was often $100, once or twice maybe $250. Starting times were all really early, 8:00 AM was about as late as I found. A couple required number pick up at the expo the day before, and only the BAA was less than a two hour drive from my house, which is conveniently located next to I-95 at the Mass./New Hampshire border. In other words it wasn't like we were in Jackman, Me. hours and hours from a population center.
But because of either the need to be there the night before the race or to avoid getting up at something like 4:00 AM to drive there in time for the start we needed a motel room for about half the races. Even the cheap ones were about $100 a night and there was gasoline and food to buy. Even without paying for a motel you'd about break even with third place money and with a motel the same was true for second place money and generally for masters' money. Really, if you're travelling to these races, and you mostly need to because they're spread out over some distance, you're only going to make enough to support yourself if you're coming first. Just a few days ago a friend who was national class in the 80s mentioned that big money road races at distances other than the marathon were essentially extinct. There might still be a few non marathons that will pay appearance money to someone with a high enough profile but I'd bet that idea is pretty much a relic.
I know the true financial situation of one pro runner- it's not based off of guessing, I was involved with their going pro (just off of my relationship with this runner).
Based on this (and their times relative to other pros) I think runners make more than what a lot of people think but it's still not a fortune.
This particular person gets a base salary that is enough to live on, although frugally, plus a small amounts of "extra" money from various sources.
This person is part of one of the many running groups around the country.
I think this person would have more extra money coming in if they ran more road races in the 10k-half marathon range with an eye to the marathon sooner rather than later.
I can't imagine that the prize money in the indoor circuit is all that substantial- because there are so many events to pay out.
Do you think it's still possible to win decent money racing in the 10k to half marathon range? Last fall I had a Kenyan friend staying with us for six weeks. He's not at all a big name and he was hoping to do what the B Level Kenyans of years ago did, i.e., win money at "second tier" races in that 10k to half marathon range. This was in the fall in New England, surely one of the most fertile racing seasons and venues in the country. I basically was his agent, scouting out money races, getting comped entries, making travel and lodging plans, etc.
And you know what? There were very few races in that range that offered prize money and the ones that did normally only paid to third place in the open divisions and first in the masters'. There was one that went to fifth and third in the open and masters' respectively and the BAA Half went to tenth in the open and fifth in the master's', far and away the most lucrative of the lot.
In the other races the drop off from first to third was dramatic. Third place money was often $100, once or twice maybe $250. Starting times were all really early, 8:00 AM was about as late as I found. A couple required number pick up at the expo the day before, and only the BAA was less than a two hour drive from my house, which is conveniently located next to I-95 at the Mass./New Hampshire border. In other words it wasn't like we were in Jackman, Me. hours and hours from a population center.
But because of either the need to be there the night before the race or to avoid getting up at something like 4:00 AM to drive there in time for the start we needed a motel room for about half the races. Even the cheap ones were about $100 a night and there was gasoline and food to buy. Even without paying for a motel you'd about break even with third place money and with a motel the same was true for second place money and generally for masters' money. Really, if you're travelling to these races, and you mostly need to because they're spread out over some distance, you're only going to make enough to support yourself if you're coming first. Just a few days ago a friend who was national class in the 80s mentioned that big money road races at distances other than the marathon were essentially extinct. There might still be a few non marathons that will pay appearance money to someone with a high enough profile but I'd bet that idea is pretty much a relic.
This is interesting and confirms what most of us already know that unless you're really at the top making money as a long distance roadrunner is far from guaranteed. When I went to Iten, Elgeyo Marakwet, Kenya, last year, there were around 1500 -3000 runners training daily and often two or three times a day to become professional runners but I was thinking most of these people would have been better off learning a skill or a trade. To be honest, it's a sad situation to see all these athletes chasing a pipe dream.
In the mid to late 80s the second American and first New England finisher at Boston was a guy called Dave Dunham. Before the next year's race there was a Boston Globe story in which Dunham was asked if he was going to run the marathon again. He said he was not. What he was going to run was the Back Bay 10k, a name which self explains the distance and location. The BB 10k was run on the Saturday before the Saturday of Race Weekend. It was a pretty high profile race. There was money and lots of top people who were running the marathon were already in town and used BB 10 as a last tune up.
Dunham went on to say that for a runner at his level Boston had nothing to offer. Money went to 15th but it wasn't much money. I think it was $1500 at the time. He said it was possible he could run Boston in a best or close to best time, finish 14th or 15th, win very little money or even finish 16th and come up empty, but be so drained by an the effort that it could be six weeks until he could race well again. That would cost him money he said, because on nearly every weekend he could find a road race in the 8-10 km range where he could win $1000-$1500 if he was in form. That is just not possible anymore, not weekly like Dunham could do. And even with the money he was winning he worked a full time job.
I sometimes think that athletics is not really a professional sport. I suppose you have to call it that because it's not an amateur sport anymore. But every other professional I can think of has money that goes much further down from the really elite athletes. There are active 780 Major League Baseball players and everyone of them is making more than almost any track athlete does. Most minor league players are making more than track athletes ranked 5th to 10th in their event. I can't identify another professional sport where so many very good athletes are earning so little.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
correction
And yet Americans have more WMM podium finishes and global medals in the marathon than Sweden (and probably most countries) in the past 20 years. Too much focus on times which come from going to specific time trial races rather than beating people at meaningful races.
America has what - 300 million people? Sweden has 10 and the only sports that really count are soccer and ice hockey. If you count running participation on all levels: from fitness joggers to world class America is the biggest running nation on the planet. You really should dominate on the world stage (no, not all Kenyans run. Soccer is by far the biggest sport in Kenya.)
And yet Americans have more WMM podium finishes and global medals in the marathon than Sweden (and probably most countries) in the past 20 years. Too much focus on times which come from going to specific time trial races rather than beating people at meaningful races.
Nothing to do with being a 10 times larger country , if it was true, which it isn't. Do you even follow the sport? US is not even close to the top of WMM.
Do you think it's still possible to win decent money racing in the 10k to half marathon range? Last fall I had a Kenyan friend staying with us for six weeks. He's not at all a big name and he was hoping to do what the B Level Kenyans of years ago did, i.e., win money at "second tier" races in that 10k to half marathon range. This was in the fall in New England, surely one of the most fertile racing seasons and venues in the country. I basically was his agent, scouting out money races, getting comped entries, making travel and lodging plans, etc.
And you know what? There were very few races in that range that offered prize money and the ones that did normally only paid to third place in the open divisions and first in the masters'. There was one that went to fifth and third in the open and masters' respectively and the BAA Half went to tenth in the open and fifth in the master's', far and away the most lucrative of the lot.
In the other races the drop off from first to third was dramatic. Third place money was often $100, once or twice maybe $250. Starting times were all really early, 8:00 AM was about as late as I found. A couple required number pick up at the expo the day before, and only the BAA was less than a two hour drive from my house, which is conveniently located next to I-95 at the Mass./New Hampshire border. In other words it wasn't like we were in Jackman, Me. hours and hours from a population center.
But because of either the need to be there the night before the race or to avoid getting up at something like 4:00 AM to drive there in time for the start we needed a motel room for about half the races. Even the cheap ones were about $100 a night and there was gasoline and food to buy.
you're not doing it right. firstly you are in the wrong country. western nations generally don't pay any/much prize money and the races there have a lot of fast people. you need to go to countries with a running boom and lots of races but not many actual athletes - you can top 3 running times that wouldn't even get you top 20 in european races. invest in a tent. it will pay for itself hundreds of times over. or if you are driving to races, sleep in your car. paying a third of your prize money just to sleep in a bed for 6 or so hours is a waste of money. find the events that have the 10k on the saturday and 21k on the sunday and run both. don't turn your nose up at trail races either. running is running.
I remember writing that the half marathon is kind of an orphan event, i.e., it's not contested in the Worlds or Olympics, meets that are real focal points for our best people who maybe don't want to arrange their training and racing schedules to maximize their potential at a half marathon. ....
I know the true financial situation of one pro runner- it's not based off of guessing, I was involved with their going pro (just off of my relationship with this runner).
Based on this (and their times relative to other pros) I think runners make more than what a lot of people think but it's still not a fortune.
This particular person gets a base salary that is enough to live on, although frugally, plus a small amounts of "extra" money from various sources.
This person is part of one of the many running groups around the country.
I think this person would have more extra money coming in if they ran more road races in the 10k-half marathon range with an eye to the marathon sooner rather than later.
I can't imagine that the prize money in the indoor circuit is all that substantial- because there are so many events to pay out.
Do you think it's still possible to win decent money racing in the 10k to half marathon range? Last fall I had a Kenyan friend staying with us for six weeks. He's not at all a big name and he was hoping to do what the B Level Kenyans of years ago did, i.e., win money at "second tier" races in that 10k to half marathon range. This was in the fall in New England, surely one of the most fertile racing seasons and venues in the country. I basically was his agent, scouting out money races, getting comped entries, making travel and lodging plans, etc.
And you know what? There were very few races in that range that offered prize money and the ones that did normally only paid to third place in the open divisions and first in the masters'. There was one that went to fifth and third in the open and masters' respectively and the BAA Half went to tenth in the open and fifth in the master's', far and away the most lucrative of the lot.
In the other races the drop off from first to third was dramatic. Third place money was often $100, once or twice maybe $250. Starting times were all really early, 8:00 AM was about as late as I found. A couple required number pick up at the expo the day before, and only the BAA was less than a two hour drive from my house, which is conveniently located next to I-95 at the Mass./New Hampshire border. In other words it wasn't like we were in Jackman, Me. hours and hours from a population center.
But because of either the need to be there the night before the race or to avoid getting up at something like 4:00 AM to drive there in time for the start we needed a motel room for about half the races. Even the cheap ones were about $100 a night and there was gasoline and food to buy. Even without paying for a motel you'd about break even with third place money and with a motel the same was true for second place money and generally for masters' money. Really, if you're travelling to these races, and you mostly need to because they're spread out over some distance, you're only going to make enough to support yourself if you're coming first. Just a few days ago a friend who was national class in the 80s mentioned that big money road races at distances other than the marathon were essentially extinct. There might still be a few non marathons that will pay appearance money to someone with a high enough profile but I'd bet that idea is pretty much a relic.
I know you make excellent points but a person in the situation I described doesn't have to worry about expenses- his club pays them.
As far as winning money- about 8 years ago another runner I knew paid his own way to road races around the northeast (he DID get some expenses but typically paid his own way).
He finished low in the money or out of it and was almost always beaten by a few Kenyans.
He and I talked about the possibility that some or all of them were doping in light of the recent positive tests by runners from Kenya.
But, to your point, Having your expenses taken care of is huge. In me scenario whether they win $100 or $1000 they get that much (I'm sure the coach/agent gets a % but you know what I mean).
Now think about this way- you have this basic income to live a frugal, simple lifestyle. Any "extra" prize bonus money you put away.
That's not a bad situation. Add in that you have a college degree (in this case a masters) and you can give it a go.
And yet Americans have more WMM podium finishes and global medals in the marathon than Sweden (and probably most countries) in the past 20 years. Too much focus on times which come from going to specific time trial races rather than beating people at meaningful races.
I think comparing the US to individual European nations isn't accurate just because of the population difference.
And, isn't there only on WMM in Europe?
You don't see a lot of Europeans in WMM's. But they are running other races.
And the podium in most races (WMM or not) is Ethiopian or Kenyan.
I think a better comparison is to look at the 2:08:10 Olympic time and combine the Western European nations and compare to the US. (If you want to make a comparison at all).
IMHO- we have to ban Kenya, as we did Russia, until they clean up their drug problem.
I remember writing that the half marathon is kind of an orphan event, i.e., it's not contested in the Worlds or Olympics, meets that are real focal points for our best people who maybe don't want to arrange their training and racing schedules to maximize their potential at a half marathon. ....
This.
Is the Half World Champ now gone? Is Ritz' best result now totally meaningless (Bronze, 2009 World half in 1:00:00). I know it was cancelled in '22, is it no more in '24?
Is the Half World Champ now gone? Is Ritz' best result now totally meaningless (Bronze, 2009 World half in 1:00:00). I know it was cancelled in '22, is it no more in '24?
Well they seem to have rolled the World Half Championship into a World Road Running Championship, which includes a road mile, 5k, and half marathon (that started at 1:30 pm in the afternoon, gross). IMO, they also should throw the 10k in there and spread the event over two days. And oh look, Jimmy Gressier from France ran a 59:46 half there even though he only has a 27:24 10k PR.
Is the Half World Champ now gone? Is Ritz' best result now totally meaningless (Bronze, 2009 World half in 1:00:00). I know it was cancelled in '22, is it no more in '24?
Well they seem to have rolled the World Half Championship into a World Road Running Championship, which includes a road mile, 5k, and half marathon (that started at 1:30 pm in the afternoon, gross). IMO, they also should throw the 10k in there and spread the event over two days. And oh look, Jimmy Gressier from France ran a 59:46 half there even though he only has a 27:24 10k PR.
And yet Americans have more WMM podium finishes and global medals in the marathon than Sweden (and probably most countries) in the past 20 years. Too much focus on times which come from going to specific time trial races rather than beating people at meaningful races.
America has what - 300 million people? Sweden has 10 and the only sports that really count are soccer and ice hockey. If you count running participation on all levels: from fitness joggers to world class America is the biggest running nation on the planet. You really should dominate on the world stage (no, not all Kenyans run. Soccer is by far the biggest sport in Kenya.)
Okay all of Europe. Europe has more than twice the population of the United States. How many podium does Europe have in the past 10 years for world marathon majors and olympics? A few? In the past 10 years Rupp has had 4 podium finishes, women we've had Seidel, Des, Shalane, I might be missing one. So 7 or more podium finishes by Americans in the marathon. Europe would need 15+ to match us. They have Sifan Hassan who has had two podium finishes, the guy from the Nageeye has had two. And Mo has had two. Any others? That's only 6 from the entire continent of Europe. I might be missing a couple, but it doesn't match what the US has for podium finishes per capita. And then if we looked at top 10 finishes, we're still way ahead. Rupp had another top 10 at the olympics, Jared Ward had a top 10 in Rio. Lots of American men and women finishing in the top 10 at Chicago/Boston/New York and even in Tokyo and London.
Saw the news about the Barcelona half marathon. 28-year-old Swedish runner Andreas Almgren ran 59:23 to finish second to Kibiwott Kandie by one second. This was his debut half marathon race. He has a 5000 track PR of 13:01 and a recent road 10k of 27:20 at Valencia. Never heard of this guy until I read the news about the Barcelona half. American runners have beaten these times in recent years, indicating they have the ability to beat the American half marathon record if they take a serious attempt at it.
So why not go for it? What do they have to lose? Wouldn't it be nice for Grant Fisher to have another American record to his name or a different runner get their first American record? Do their contracts not have an American record bonus? What's with their hesitance here? Why are the US women runners unafraid to go for the American half marathon record while the men don't even give it a try?
He’s not a “random Swedish guy”. Your American-ness is sticking out.
And because of that why would anyone listen to you suggestions?
Interesting enough that american men will chase qualifying standards (with success) but will not raise the bar for themselves. Maybe they're afraid of developing an injury or think they can't compete with internationals on a high level. But every time the qualifying standards are set at faster paces there seems to be success. I would like to see more boldness in the american men instead of just running only to get to championships.
They run the wrong races- they should be running these fast, European races being pulled along by faster runners and yes they should go for it more often.
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here. Every elite athlete I’ve spoken to about racing says that they love it. They’re used to it. They grew up racing twice a week throughout the season.
The problem is the race directors and sponsors. Flying in 5 fast runners is no big deal but they don’t view this as value added. Races in the US are for the couch to 1/2 marathon crew. In Europe there is prestige in having a record broken on your course—here it’s just an annoyance.
Fix the races, the American elites will come and times will drop.
Well they seem to have rolled the World Half Championship into a World Road Running Championship, which includes a road mile, 5k, and half marathon (that started at 1:30 pm in the afternoon, gross). IMO, they also should throw the 10k in there and spread the event over two days. And oh look, Jimmy Gressier from France ran a 59:46 half there even though he only has a 27:24 10k PR.
I like the format the way it is because you really aren't taking away any doubles.
I would like to see a road 10K championship that includes a team race with 5 scoring runners.
Have an open race along with it. Maybe a Master's Championship, too and you'll have a nice little package for race day.
They did have some open races with the championships. I only included the elite race timetable.
I am not sure what you mean by "really aren't taking away any doubles." It is hard to double at the championships the way it is. Do you think by spreading it over two days there might be people doubling? My thought would be to have the 5k and 10k on the first day and road mile and half marathon on the second day.
