Why do the Wisconsin schools dominate D3?

yo yeah wrote:

Another solid advantage that I've heard is that they offer in-state tuition to a resident of any bordering state--letting them get in Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan (?) kids for cheap.

Gotta give credit where credit is due, though, most of these advantages would be meaningless if the schools did not have great coaches and great traditions of success.

If by "they" you mean, the state of Wisconsin has reciprocity with some of its neighbors, yes, you're correct. Those students get in-state tuition. That means Wisconsin students can get in-state tuition at the other state schools, too. It's not some sort of special offer.

Any school gives some merit to athletic achievement when admitting students. But not necessarily alot. I really get tired of these unfounded rumors about DIII and the Ivies.

Any school gives some merit to athletic achievement when admitting students. But not necessarily alot. I really get tired of these unfounded rumors about DIII and the Ivies.[/quote]

I know first hand that many schools find ways for student/athletes to afford their school in ways that normal students at those schools couldn't. It is well known among the coaching circles that certain schools find different ways of interpreting NCAA rules(This holds true for all divisions). Maybe I am the only one, not a chance, told by a division III coach that I wouldn't have to worry about paying for school after I told him my concerns on the price. It was a $30,000 school and there was no way I could have gone for less than having to pay a good amount. It is not a big deal though, it happens, doesn't effect that much.

Success breeds success. And I have a difficult time believing that a school that hands a little extra aid money (unethically?) over to their prospective student athletes doesn't really have that big of an influence. What about the schools that don't do that, either by choice of the coach or the college? Sounds like that would create a significant recruiting disadvantage for that particular institution.

Nobody at UW-Oshkosh gets "special" scholarships, at least not for track (and I highly doubt the other sports do). Just because 1 coach made a comment about being able to afford school doesn't mean all DIII schools offer special deals their athletes.

DIII XC/track programs in Wisconsin do not give any sort of "under the table" scholarships to incoming athletes.

idealist wrote:

yo yeah wrote:

Another solid advantage that I've heard is that they offer in-state tuition to a resident of any bordering state--letting them get in Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan (?) kids for cheap.

Gotta give credit where credit is due, though, most of these advantages would be meaningless if the schools did not have great coaches and great traditions of success.

If by "they" you mean, the state of Wisconsin has reciprocity with some of its neighbors, yes, you're correct. Those students get in-state tuition. That means Wisconsin students can get in-state tuition at the other state schools, too. It's not some sort of special offer.

It's not a special offer, you're right, but if the other states have more D-I programs or D-II programs while Wisconsin has more D-III programs, it still stands that Wisconsin would get the best D-III athletes from all of those states. But I could be wrong.

Phish Breathe wrote:

I know first hand that many schools find ways for student/athletes to afford their school in ways that normal students at those schools couldn't. It is well known among the coaching circles that certain schools find different ways of interpreting NCAA rules(This holds true for all divisions). Maybe I am the only one, not a chance, told by a division III coach that I wouldn't have to worry about paying for school after I told him my concerns on the price. It was a $30,000 school and there was no way I could have gone for less than having to pay a good amount. It is not a big deal though, it happens, doesn't effect that much.

These rumors about "leadership scholarships" and such have been around for years and are greatly exaggerated. At the majority of private DIII schools, almost every student gets some financial aid based on need and/or academic achievement. The coach in this example may just have known enough about your family's financial situation and/or your test scores to know you'd get a good aid package from his financial aid office, without you being given special treatment. He also probably didn't mind that you assumed he was pulling strings for you.

There is no ambiguity in the NCAA rules--DIII colleges are prohibited from giving aid money to athletes not available to the general student. Admission is a different issue--most DIII schools do bend admissions requirements. But if money is being steered towards athletes, that is a clear violation and happens very rarely, if at all.

My personal experience...

I was concerned about affording a private DIII. Told the coach I wasn't thrilled with the financial aid package. He said he would check with the financial aid office and the next week I got a improved financial aid package.

They are out there, totally legal, called leadership grant or some other name. Just because you weren't not offered one means you didn't ask.

Even regular students have access to this money, but it is only given to "leaders" or a great musician or a disadvantaged youth or something else. This institution choose to hold this money to persuade athletes.

This is a fact not just a rumor. Of course all athletic departments aren't afforded this advantage.

Its against NC2A regulation for the coach to even speak with the financial aid office, much less hammer out a deal on a financial aid package for an athlete. Our stupid school/coach plays by the rules...and we still have a couple all-americans every year.

UW-Oshkosh has one of the best coaches in the country, John Zupanc. He is a great motivator and technical coach. That is why they are so tough.

rage wrote:

Its against NC2A regulation for the coach to even speak with the financial aid office, much less hammer out a deal on a financial aid package for an athlete. Our stupid school/coach plays by the rules...and we still have a couple all-americans every year.

This statement is untrue as written.

It is totally legal for a coach to call the financial aid officer. They can also email, eat lunch, shake hands and other dubious things like discuss packages.

You are only correct in the assertion that a coach cannot HELP package students financially.

But therein is the limit. A coach is perfectly in their right to do such things.

As for the totally unfounded myth about "illicit" scholarships, again untrue. Leadership awards are out there, but schools are very aware and try very hard to not break these rules. In fact, they almost always err on the side of caution. Most schools will give more to a school newspaper reporter than a team captain.

Truth is, at any given school you may have two kids on campus with the exact same HS GPA (adjusted) and test score. They will likely be paying two very different amounts for school. They might not even be on the same academic award. A lot goes into it.

It's not illegal to pay attention to athletes as them come to be admitted or awarded merit money, but they cannot fall outside an accepted norm for students of their caliber.

What this has to do with WIAC schools, I know not. They are all much more reasonably priced than the average D3. Squad size limits or not, they still have a larger pool to pull from. But this does not explain why Calvin or Williams wins cross titles.

A flat out truth about D3, if someone is walking around thinking they got some major special treatment because they're an athlete, they don't know the nuts and bolts behind their package.

Nope

It is against NC2A regulation for the head coach of a D3 university to start communication with the financial aid office at all.

Phish Breathe wrote:I know first hand that many schools find ways for student/athletes to afford their school in ways that normal students at those schools couldn't.

Not at WIAC schools though. In the past few years the WIAC has produced an Olympic Gold Medalist and a sub-4 miler and neither of them received any sort of "special" monetary sums.

Hate to beat a dead horse but here is the official addressing of the situation in the NCAA rules compliance book. Everyone can interpet the rule the way the like but here it is...what does everyone else think?

Members of the athletics staff of a member institution shall not be permitted to arrange or modify the financial aid package (as assembled by the financial aid officer or financial aid committee) and are prohibited from serving as members of member institutions' financial aid committees AND FROM BEING INVOLVED IN ANY MANNER in the review of the institutional financial assistance to be awarded to a student-athlete. [Bylaw 15.4.5]

The intent of this prohibition is not to specifically preclude all communication between the athletics department and the financial aid office, but is necessary to prevent the athletics department from influencing a student-athlete's financial aid package, directly or indirectly. [Official Interpretation, Item 1-a]

"Another solid advantage that I've heard is that they offer in-state tuition to a resident of any bordering state--letting them get in Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, and Michigan (?) kids for cheap. "

WI only has reciprocity with MN. Everyone else pays out-of-state. They can't poach kids from Iowa or Michigan for regular tuition.

The WI schools also have certain specialties and some of them are not in altogether bad towns.

You also need to look at the enrollment of the Wisconsin schools I think that it is pretty high. Which would add to the quality.

Necropost. Eighteen years later, how do the above explanations stand? What really makes the Wisconsin schools a powerhouse in D3?

Size, cost, and not super selective.

La Crosse has 10,000 students and average cost is $12,000 after aid.

A lot of small liberal arts colleges have under 5,000 students (some closer to 2,000) and cost 30k+ after aid on average.

If you look at La Crosse's roster, most of the team is from Wisconsin with a few from IL and MN and one random kid from New Jersey. They don't cast a wide net outside of their region, but its a relatively cheap school where a 16:30 high school 5k runner can get some attention.