Are my coach's workouts too hard?

I ran on New Year's Day because it wasn't a scheduled day off. If it's not a scheduled day off then I don't take a day off. I take a rest day every week, and it didn't fall on New Year's Day.

What do you guys recommend that I do? Here are my PRs, as of this past XC and track season.
5k: 19:37
1600: 5:07
800: 2:07
400: 54/55 (just an estimate, I ran 56 at the end of a workout)
My current schedule looks like this (30 miles/week for the last 3 weeks, and I was planning on sticking with that. Did a 3-4 week buildup in mileage before that)

Sunday: Long run - 8 miles
Monday: "easy" speed day - 4 miles total (long warmups and cooldowns), usually just some 100s,200s, or short sprints. I'd call it more of a medium day, and it's been that way until yesterday's workout, the one I made this post about.
Tuesday: easy run - 5 miles
Wednesday: distance workout - 6 miles, usually a 4 mile tempo with a warmup and cool down. Not opposed to doing some mile repeats or 800 repeats
Thursday: easy run - 5 miles
Friday: hard speed day - 2 miles total, basically the same as monday but harder. An example workout I did a bit ago was 8x80m sprints (short recovery), then 2x200 all out (full recovery)
Saturday: Rest

I'm also lifting 4 days a week, hitting lower body on sunday and wednesday, and upper body on saturday and thursday.

My goal is to break 2 in the 800 this season, and 5 in the 1600. Does that seem plausible? And should I make adjustments to my training?

ok, let me explain. Most coaches just pick the "run at race pace" because

1) they don't really know much about running - so that is what they read online

2) they don't know enough about you to know if this workout is going to be too hard

So, the solution is always try to build into a workout - meaning you are going to get faster as it goes.

So, your first set should always be slower as you body warms up. Even the reps within a set can be done in progressive fashion.

Example:

400 - just start out easy (don't try to run all the reps at the same pace - runners who do this often start out too fast, and end up hurting the purpose of the workout = that is they get slower towards the end - this is always a sign that you went too hard and should shut it down so as not to spend too much time struggling).

400 - second go a second or two faster

400 - another second faster

400 - another second faster if you have it in you (or if the previous one felt quick, hold that pace)

When I was in HS I had a coach who must have gotten workout times from some book or formula and wanted me to do 8 x400 in 68 or something like that. I struggled from the very first one. Instead of adjusting the workout to fit me (my level of fitness) he just kept giving me the same workout. That's not really coaching. Coaching is listening and observing and making changes as needed.

As others have pointed out this is also a pretty aggressive workout forJan 1. One way to may this workout more base oriented (if your coach is reading this or you want to propose this) is to not worry about the time so much and cut the recovery down to 30-60 sec. By making the rest super short you can't run too fast or you won't be able to finish. You are not able to finish the workout your coach is giving you because the paces are too fast. Here is what I propose if you are going to do intervals in Jan.

4x400 progressive (faster as you go, but start out easy) 30 sec rest after #1, 40 after #2, 50 after #3) 2 min rest then 4x200 progressive (same formula as above). The second set should only be done if you did not go too fast on the first set. Until you learn to run the workout under control there is no point doing more. When you can do this workout properly 8x400 + 8X200 is still an awful lot. I would personally drop to to 6x400 and 4 x200 (the goal of the 200's is just to work on speed a little and should only be done slightly faster the 400 pace.

don't be discourage by the fact that you can not complete this coaches workout. It is not an indication of anything about you - it is more an indication that the workout paces are too fast. and the workout is too long. You would be better served to be doing tempo runs with maybe 1 track work a week. (again the tempos should be done under control = the goal is not to run as fast as you can or hard but try to run as quick with as little effort (efficiency) is the goal. If doing 4-6 miles you should finish feeling like you could have gone 10.

Yes

"my coach prefers I go too fast and fail, then go slower to complete every rep."

I see this as the problem.

Is is ok to do this on an occasional basis at the end of a workout but not as the formula for how to do workouts. In fact, it is the exact opposite of what I would have runners do.

That workout is doable. What well trained athletes run for workouts in high school would blow your mind.

To improve at your level there's no reason to overcomplicate it. Your running 28 mpw. So to improve you should do something along the lines of:

Mon, wed, Fri and sat easy 30-60 min run w/ 4-6 strides afterwards

Tues and Thurs: 6x3 minutes on at LT pace/1 minute jog or 4 x 6 min on at LT pace /2 min jog

Sun 20 x 30 sec hill w/ a jog back. Gradually build up to something like this and you'll crush your personal best without risking overtraining.

also bear in mind smart folks try to peak at their local championship meet and not week 1. it's a balancing act to stay in shape offseason but be fresh when the season starts, and still improving. your coach reminds me of my college coach who was forever sending out summer training plans. to me the best training plan was stay in shape, i usually didn't follow his plan, i practiced and played games with my select team in summer league. just like i thought he overdid it on practices so some days i would take it easy during the practice.

it's a balancing act with coaches like that and generally to me what that kind of coach wants is you show up not completely out of shape. so treat their plan as a recommendation IMO. when you show up for practice then he's boss. but if you think an offseason workout is wacko or too soon, adjust accordingly, pace, number of intervals, rest. the idea is to get in shape, finish what you start, pace smartly.

I coach high school middle distance. I personally think that is A LOT of volume for most high school kids in one workout, especially for January. Here is what I think about you not being able to get through the workout:

1. That is a very tough workout if you were to do all of it at the prescribed paces.

2. It sounds like you are not getting a lot of recovery during your week. 3 workouts and 4 lifting sessions doesn't give you a lot of days to give your body a break.

3. Talk to your coach. I know you don't want to feel like a wimp, but I WANT my athletes to tell me when they are struggling so we can problem solve together.

It is the whole issue. You are probably in more like 5:20 shape right now and we’re doing more like 1000/600m paces. Everyone does this in HS with the idea of if I run 71s in practice I will be a 4:45 guy. It doesn’t work that way. You just become a workout warrior.

3 workouts sounds like a lot but it depends what they are. 2 threshold type and something like this is pretty solid. But it also sounds like you need a bit more volume to support this workout.

How do you know that workout is doable for this person? You don't know him or his ability?

The problem with most of these answers from these so called coaches is that they are basing the answers on themselves Coaches coach to help their athletes progress and realize their potential not to fulfill some dream workout that someone else has done.

Coach the athlete you have, not the ones you wish you had or used to have. No coach has their athletes do three workouts per week if they understand physiology. Hard training is worthless without proper recovery. Smart training wins.

Why is it a failure if he doesn't meet the times?

Simply running the session at effort is more important than what is showing on the watch

If this is for real I'm sorry to say you have a very bad coach. Looks like you live in Australia?

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll talk to him. I'm thinking maybe cutting down to two workouts a week, and if I do, what should they look like? I know I said I run the 1600, but I really care the most about the 800, so keep that in mind. If I had to come up with it myself I'd say one speed oriented day and one distance oriented day, but maybe its not that simple. Beyond just cutting down the amount of workouts, I guess I could ask him to reconsider the workouts that he is giving me, or I can just adjust the paces to how I feel.

Yeah, at the time I didn't realize how much of an impact that could have, but now that I think about it that definitely hurt me during that workout. I still don't think I could have, or even should have, finished though based on what I've seen in this thread and how I felt during the workout.

I think you just started out to fast. Next time try date pace and working down if you feel good to goal pace. If your goal is sub-5 thats still only 74s.

Yeah, I don't want to undermine your coach, but what you were asked to do on Monday was not "easy" or "medium." It was the equivalent of a race. You shouldn't be doing anything like that, or your Friday hard speed workouts, until competition season -- and even then, sparingly.

The best way for you to improve is to gradually increase mileage at easy pace, and to build up your volume at tempo/threshold pace on workout days in the off-season. Add a few strides and hills to maintain speed fitness.

He told us his ability and what he could do. He could do half the workout running each 400 5-10s too fast. You don’t need to be too smart to know this workout would have been doable at somewhere close to the right pace. OP hoped they dropped 30s off their PR. They were wrong. The 90s of rest versus 60s that some people mention.is also huge in making this a very tolerable workout.

no coach does 3 workouts/week? Pretty much every coach does 3 workouts/week. That is a stable of plans from lydiard to daniels to the Norwegians. The only question is what the workouts are. We don’t know what the other 2 are. If they are say 4 miles of tempo work, then we are talking a solid base. 3 miles of vo2max intervals and he will be cooked by March.

Not something I would prescribe. Would be better off running 400' s at 3k pace and 200's at 1500m pace. Session should look like this 2x5x400 at 3k pace on 2 min cycle +4-6x200 at 1500m pace on 90 second cycle.

At this time of the year your 400's should be at 3k pace. Had runner just run 3:54 1500 and he has not run any 400's faster than 67 seconds. Nats for us are in April.

Good luck!