for the workout day I would suggest to him that after his workout he should feel good after like he could have done 10-20% more. I think thats really important for bas phase
For his “speed” day just have him do 10 second hill sprints with full recovery. Can do those twice a week. Other than that his focus should be the weekly tempo, long run, and overall mileage. The exception is to have him do some core work a few days a week. Just google some 10-15 minute run specific videos.
M- Mileage + Core
T- Mileage + Hill Sprints
W- Threshold (Ex: 8 x 1k with minute jog)
T - Mileage + Core
F- Mileage + Hill Sprints
S- Long Run (every other week turn this into a progression run)
Not knowing your sons age/grade and how long he has been running or his current/ltypical milage - there really are more "don'ts" then "do this" beyond keep it simple. I'm seeing a lot of multiple days a week of hills and some (IMO) aggresssive interval/threshold work for a base phase. HS kids should slowly work up milage - it won't go up a lot over 13 weeks - hill work maybe once every 7-10 days (no downhill running after XC- walk or super slow jog downhill - high incidence of shin splints going down ) strides 3-4X working up intensity over time - but never getting to "all out" - form first when "tired" is purpose. Don't be a afraid of a day off or cross training day every week or two - especially if he "breaks down" often.
Keys - consistency, stay healthy, commit to getting to bed and getting plenty of sleep -
General recommendations: 10" hill sprints are really beneficial during base phase. Don't do Daniels' style 20' tempos. Either do tempos @ sub-T or intervals @ T. Avoid lactate accumulation. Introduce easy doubles?
I actually think the Norwegian model, adapted for ability level and training age, is a really good base. Lots of doubles, threshold 2 days/wk, speed dev 1 day/wk, "race pace" 1 day/wk (~30" hills 1 day/wk). But I really like Rubio for HS athletes (google Joe Rubio 1500m). 5-pace model, so always something at 1500-pace, something faster, and something shorter. But he is really good at starting pace workouts bite-sized and confidence building during base and building progressively throughout the season. Not recommending either model for full adaptation "out of the box", but worth reading over and adapting for your son's needs.
- Focus on increasing volume, but do so carefully. Gradually inch into higher mileage territory than he's done before. For high school kids, it also seems to work very well to do 2 weeks of high mileage and 1 week down. (Older, more experienced runners take far fewer down weeks.) Higher mileage supports harder workouts down the road, and a bigger base makes fitness more durable and allows for a longer peak.
- "Tempos" can be significantly easier than Daniels T pace. If the breathing is elevated, then blood lactate is climbing a bit and muscle oxygenation is dropping a bit, and that's enough for adaptation.
- For the 3200, he needs both speed and speed endurance. Long distance guys can get away with just doing 8-second sprints because they're just using it to build running economy. Middle distance guys need to actually be able to put down a lot of power, so the longer sprint reps are more directly relevant.
- Anaerobic capacity is frequently neglected by American coaches. They still tend to think of anaerobic training in Lydiard terms, where you're training to "tolerate" acidosis. This type of training is indeed very stressful and can't be done for weeks on end. But what's often missed is that you also need to be able to produce enough anaerobic energy for acidosis to even be a factor. This type of training takes a long time, but fortunately very small volumes are enough. A workout could be 4x300 at around 800 meter pace, with a 3-5 minute recovery between reps. The idea is to get blood lactate back down close to baseline so you're not accumulating oxygen debt from rep to rep. Then you hammer another rep to produce as much anaerobic energy as you can. Another benefit of this kind of training is that it doubles as speed endurance. A lot of coaches would shy away from this kind of training in the off season, but with long recovery, low volume, and only doing it every other week or so, it can be done all year without ill effect.
- There's no one way to do it. The most important thing by far is that the overall load be correct. In this season, that means bouncing around between medium-hard and medium-easy. Save the truly hard training for the spring. Also, he's young enough that what's medium-hard might just be medium or even medium-easy in a few months. It's how the training feels that matters.
Sub 9:30 runner and the HS coach provides no winter training guidance. I was thinking of just telling him to follow the applicable Daniels training by phase and see how that goes. Otherwise he knows enough to do a speed day, a tempo run, and a long run each week, but that doesn’t seem targeted enough for base phase winter training and he probably will overdo the speed work without structure. He’ll probably do one indoor race to get an Arcadia time then have Arcadia as his first important race.
He’ll want to mix in some cross training cardio.
Any other ideas?
Daniels will ruin a high school kid. keep it simple as others have suggested.
Everyone does Daniels, even if they don't know it. Just maybe not step by step. There are only so many energy systems.
So how would Daniels ruin someone? The work outs are even laid out by MPW?
General recommendations: 10" hill sprints are really beneficial during base phase. Don't do Daniels' style 20' tempos. Either do tempos @ sub-T or intervals @ T. Avoid lactate accumulation. Introduce easy doubles?
I actually think the Norwegian model, adapted for ability level and training age, is a really good base. Lots of doubles, threshold 2 days/wk, speed dev 1 day/wk, "race pace" 1 day/wk (~30" hills 1 day/wk). But I really like Rubio for HS athletes (google Joe Rubio 1500m). 5-pace model, so always something at 1500-pace, something faster, and something shorter. But he is really good at starting pace workouts bite-sized and confidence building during base and building progressively throughout the season. Not recommending either model for full adaptation "out of the box", but worth reading over and adapting for your son's needs.
Daniels defines threshold runs pretty much how the rest of the world does. I dont think he has a style. He mentions threshold runs as continuous r broken. How do you mean "tempos and sub T"? Or intervals @T (which would actually be T, but just broken up but not any better or worse than 20 min straight)
Building up his volume is critical to his long term development. The key to avoiding injury is for him to do his base mileage at an easy pace, ideally on a soft surface. Generally this should be at a heart rate of 30-40 beats below your threshold heart rate. So if his threshold heart rate is 180, his easy running should be done at between a heart rate of 140 to 150. for a 9:30 2 miler, this will probably be somewhere around 7:30 pace. This usually feels extremely slow to high school athletes who are not yet accustomed to high volume training. Here is a sample week in the mid part of his base phase.
Mon
1 hour easy
Tues
a.m. 30 minutes easy run or cross train, plus weights. p.m. 1 hour easy plus 8x75 meter steep hills with full recovery
Wed
1 hour easy
Thurs
a.m. 30 minutes easy run or cross train, plus activation strides, plus core.
P.m. 60-70 minutes including lite threshold work, best done as intervals ie 6x4 minutes with 1 minute rest. Don't overdo, should feel like he is able to do at least 2 more intervals.
Friday
45 minutes easy
Sat
90 minutes as 30 minutes easy and 60 minutes steady (heart rate 15-20 beats below threshold)
Mileage and tempo runs with strides afterwards. Keep it simple.
Exactly. Everything by feel. The easy should be easy. Tempo by feel, what feels like a 7/8 today? Strides after runs. I would add one day of hills, :30-:60, with good recovery. But, if the runner has achieved sub 9:30, why not trust what has happened and how it has happened up to this point? Introducing a winter plan, where there has not been one before, introduces a new factor, which could lead to injury if not careful.
5-10% more milage unless he is already high milage; tempos or tempo intervals 1-2 times a week; a longer run, strides multiple times pers week - like every day, occassional short hills. Easy day easy, consistency, progression, recovery.
If he’s doing these workouts solo after school, be careful he doesn’t overdo it. Racing tempos/workouts is a quick way to kill talent if he’s doing it every week. Idk what his personality is like, but send a clear message he needs to leave something in the tank unless otherwise specified.
Daniels will ruin a high school kid. keep it simple as others have suggested.
Everyone does Daniels, even if they don't know it. Just maybe not step by step. There are only so many energy systems.
So how would Daniels ruin someone? The work outs are even laid out by MPW?
"Step by step" is the difference between ALL training plans if there are only so many energy systems then! (I agree). There's nuance.
Not everyone does Daniels because of how it's assembled day to day. If I did every Daniels workout in the wrong order, is that still Daniels training?
Everyone does specific types of runs/workouts. An analogy is that the workouts are the "2x4's, plywood, concrete, doors/windows etc", the training plan is the style of building design and how the basic building blocks (runs/workouts) are put together in relation to each other and schedule. Tons of different-looking architecture with the same materials.
Daniels system ends up making people run too hard, especially those not accustomed to mileage. It doesn't account for lower mileage, mid-distance guys like me in my experience at least. It's unnecessarily complex in it's format too. Easy paces are too fast if you don't know your body either, which most high school runners do not.
I think Daniels should only be used by coaches who really know what they're doing or by athletes who have gone through high school and college programs to acclimate to hard training. Too early for high schoolers.
Daniels defines threshold runs pretty much how the rest of the world does. I dont think he has a style. He mentions threshold runs as continuous r broken. How do you mean "tempos and sub T"? Or intervals @T (which would actually be T, but just broken up but not any better or worse than 20 min straight)
It's not uncommon for those following Daniels to conflate Threshold (intensity level) and Tempo (kind of workout). Yes, Daniels allows for cruise intervals at threshold and has a table for modifying pace for longer tempos, but these are easily missed behind his default 20' tempo at threshold setting.
For developing runners and especially during base phase, I think tempos are more effective when run sub-Threshold pace (instead of 20' @ 5:30, run 20'-40' @ 6:00->5:45 or straight through at 5:45 when fit), even as a 20'-40' segment of a medium-long run. Threshold intervals allow for more volume and a wider margin for error than a tempo at threshold.
Sub 9:30 runner and the HS coach provides no winter training guidance. I was thinking of just telling him to follow the applicable Daniels training by phase and see how that goes. Otherwise he knows enough to do a speed day, a tempo run, and a long run each week, but that doesn’t seem targeted enough for base phase winter training and he probably will overdo the speed work without structure. He’ll probably do one indoor race to get an Arcadia time then have Arcadia as his first important race.
He’ll want to mix in some cross training cardio.
Any other ideas?
Hey dude,
Keep it simple, highschool kid typical week that isn't a race week, would probably be this.
M: 45-60mins +strides
T: AM: 3200 meter specific workout (6 miles of work, college kids shoot for 10mi of work) PM: Optional shakeout run
W: 45-60mins
Tr: Off
F: AM: Tempo/Threshold work 6mi worth of work. PM: Optional shakeout run.
Sa: 45-60mins
Sun: 90 Mins long run, no faster than 6 flat.
That'd probably do it, then week before a race, maybe bring the volume down a bit, week of a race do a tune-up workout 3 or 4 days out.
Chat GPT: Build an 8 week program for an experienced HS distance runner: (*actually not bad)
Certainly! Here's an 8-week winter base running program designed for an experienced high school runner aiming to maintain fitness during the winter months: Weeks 1-2: Foundation Building Day 1: 45 minutes easy run Day 2: 60 minutes easy run Day 3: 45 minutes easy run Day 4: 60 minutes easy run with hill sprints Day 5: 45 minutes easy run Day 6: 5K at a moderate pace Day 7: Rest or light cross-training Weeks 3-4: Increasing Volume and Intensity Day 1: 60 minutes easy run Day 2: 75 minutes easy run Day 3: 50 minutes tempo run (comfortably hard pace) Day 4: 45 minutes easy run with hill sprints Day 5: 60 minutes easy run Day 6: 8K at a moderate pace Day 7: Rest or light cross-training Weeks 5-6: Introducing Fartlek and Speed Work Day 1: 70 minutes easy run Day 2: 90 minutes easy run Day 3: 60 minutes fartlek run (vary pace throughout) Day 4: 50 minutes easy run with strides Day 5: 70 minutes easy run Day 6: 10K at a moderate pace Day 7: Rest or light cross-training Weeks 7-8: Fine-Tuning and Specificity Day 1: 80 minutes easy run Day 2: 100 minutes easy run Day 3: 60 minutes tempo run Day 4: 8x400 meters at race pace with 2-minute rest Day 5: 80 minutes easy run Day 6: 5K at race pace Day 7: Rest or light cross-training This program incorporates a mix of easy runs, long runs, hill sprints, tempo runs, fartlek, and speed work to maintain and enhance the runner's aerobic capacity and speed during the winter season. It assumes the athlete has a solid running foundation and can handle higher volumes and intensities. Adjustments can be made based on individual needs and feedback.
My advice: Give him 1-2 weeks completely off after Cross season, then, build up from 30mpw or so up to 50-60 or whatever he's comfortable with. All EASY, with a long run on Saturdays (build up to 10 miles), and throw in a fartlek no more than once a week.
The 3200 is >95% aerobic. All the hard running and workouts you guys might want to do are going to have marginal benefit and just get him injured or burned out. Let him run by feel, and focus on CONSISTENT MILEAGE.
Sub 9:30 runner and the HS coach provides no winter training guidance. I was thinking of just telling him to follow the applicable Daniels training by phase and see how that goes. Otherwise he knows enough to do a speed day, a tempo run, and a long run each week, but that doesn’t seem targeted enough for base phase winter training and he probably will overdo the speed work without structure. He’ll probably do one indoor race to get an Arcadia time then have Arcadia as his first important race.
He’ll want to mix in some cross training cardio.
Any other ideas?
Some very good replies except that ChatGPT one haha!
Not knowing the age of your son or running experience this is what we do during the build phase preparing for our athletics season. This is September-November as our XC champs are at the end of August.
Monday 8-10k easy
Tuesday alternate weeks of 2x6x400 on 1:45 cycle + 1k-2k threshold to finish or 3x1k as( 400 on 200 float 400 on)( +4x800) as 200 float/200 on rest cycle is 4:30 which means roughly 80-90 seconds 800's on 4 min cycle (same 80-100 seconds) + 1k threshold
Wednesday 10-15k depending on athlete
Thursday 2x3k +1x1k at threshold pace w/1min rest on grass usually around 3:15-3:25k pace + 5x100m hill strides
Friday Off or recovery run
Saturday alternate weeks hills session or surging hill or 6-7x1k on grass on 4:30 cycle
Sunday 60-90 minute easy run depending on athlete
On the Tuesday session our splits are usually around 69-74 seconds so as one of our guys ran 8:19 3k recently with very little work at that pace. Our Nationals are in April so nothing too specific yet.
Volume varies for my group with older guys running around 100k (60miles) and my young 14 year old who recently ran 8:55 for 3k runs around 35-40 miles a week.
Sub 9:30 runner and the HS coach provides no winter training guidance. I was thinking of just telling him to follow the applicable Daniels training by phase and see how that goes. Otherwise he knows enough to do a speed day, a tempo run, and a long run each week, but that doesn’t seem targeted enough for base phase winter training and he probably will overdo the speed work without structure. He’ll probably do one indoor race to get an Arcadia time then have Arcadia as his first important race.
He’ll want to mix in some cross training cardio.
Any other ideas?
He needs the best coach we have here at LR, the wizard JS !
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.