was Dathan Ritzenheim the best HS 5k runner of the modern era?

idk, 8:29 might be a bit better than 13:44. Verzbicas had regular spikes too, but no one has given the record a real scare since he set it. Ritz didn't even break the 5k record when he ran 13:44, and 3 people have run faster since (Rupp ran 7 seconds faster without supershoes). He won FL x2 and NXN, and set the indoor 5k national record as part of a mile/2mile/5k triple at nationals.

I think the real take is that Verzbicas would've won anything 5k and below, and Ritz would've won 10k and XC. I'd give Verzbicas the nod because I think he could win XC more than Ritz could beat him on the track.

That's "Ritzenhein," dear.

Rudy Chapa FTW

I really can't see him dropping Verzbicas in any kind of race and I see Verzbicas outkicking him the last 800m 6/10 times in a hypothetical xc race. We could argue His junior year(senior year) was more dominant than anyones plus he won every single title he went for. Same way we give Ritz credit for defeating the sub 4 miler and hall We gotta give Verzbicas credit for holding off a wide variety of talented runners across various distances guys like Cheserek, Gedyon, Oshier, Mudd, lutz, Futsum, Erassa. Sub 4 in the rain and 8:29 I will give Ritz credit for actually holding the 5k record but sub 4, 8:29 and a world championship clearly indicates he would be the superior 5k runner to answer the original question.

Imagine that 8:29 with super spikes.

I think it mostly comes down to a discussion of Ritz, German, and Verzbicas. I think an argument could be made to include Webb in that discussion as well. Webb ran 1:47, 3:53, and 8:45 indoors (and basically solo) his senior year, and lost xc only to Ritz. Ritz's win at Footlocker his senior year is one of the best high school xc performances ever (he won by 20 seconds I believe), but German's win at the state meet and breaking the course record is possibly the best HS XC performance ever. German was also young for his grade.

Good question on what should be considered "modern era" though. Also can't believe how much the sport has progressed in the last 20 years. SOME of that is due to supershoes etc, but the bulk of it is simply better training. I think the internet and spread of books like DRF is probably responsible for that. I remember trying to talk to my coach about DRF and how essentially time trialing every tempo run was a poor way to train, and he wouldn't listen. Guy had been coaching 25 years and didn't know having teenagers run all out 3x per week wasn't an optimal way to train. I don't think there are many coaches like that anymore.

modern era lol... go to bed old man

Yeah, not sure what "modern era" encompasses = post-2000? post-Zatopek? post-1990? I recently asked my former college coach (who saw many of the greats run in SoCal races from Lindgren through Newbury Park) who the greatest ever HS XC runner was, which means 3miles/5k unless you talk about the international races, and his immediate response was Jeff Nelson. I was in the race when he set the Mt. SAC (old) course record and can attest to how incredible that time was. That said, the achievements of the Youngs, Ritz, Fernandez, Verzbicas, and Webb are undeniably epic. And there's Rupp. Nor would I want to bet against Virgin or Lindgren or Hulst or Chapa. I think it would depend greatly on the conditions and tactics.

The guy has been a household name on this site for 25 years. You'd think someone starting a thread about how great he is would know his name. How stupid are you, OP?

Yes I accidentally misspelled one letter in his name. It took 30 replies for someone to care, I don’t think it really matters.

Ritz also ran 14:10 for a full 5k at the michigan state meet, setting the national record for an XC 5k that stood for over 20 years till the Newberry Park boys broke it on a course a lot of people found suspect. His course record is better than the next best time by 36 seconds, with guys like Grant Fisher, Hobbs Kessler, Riley Hough, Carter Solomon, and Hunter Jones all on the all time list. The previous record had been set by his very talented teammate Jason Hartmann in 14:51 so he didn't just break it, he obliterated it.

Is the "modern era" 20 years ago?

There's a strong argument that Ritz was better. But you should go back and watch Verzbicas trotting the last quarter mile and waving to the crowds at Footlocker 2010 before you declare that Ritz was "easily" better. He literally walked across the finish line. Both Ritz and Verzbicas were so far out of reach in their respective years that their races were never competitive (though Ritz had better competition). Verzbicas never lost a HS XC race or a 5000, and since his 2 mile and mile times were faster than Ritz's (he's still the national record holder in the 2 mile), it's reasonable to think that if he could have stayed with Ritz, he could have outkicked him.

Of course, we'll never know. But Verzbicas belongs in the conversation.

this course is a joke, flat as can be.

I don't know of a better cross country runner than Ritz. Won twice, destroying future American record holders in Webb and Hall. 14:10 at the state meet is in my opinion the best individual performance ever. I don't know much of the great performers before 1980, so I am willing to listen.

It's not the best individual performance ever. That course is completely flat, it is no different than the Huntsville Park course. The fact is, the Youngs and Colin broke 14:05 at Runninglane but couldn't break 14:24 at Woodward Park no matter how many times they have gone after that record.

Definitely not easily and it’s arguable.

I think Ritz had the most dominant HS XC career for sure.

But I would bet on GF and maybe Sahlman to beat him. Nico up there as well.

The all time rankings are clear.

Young, Burns, Rupp, Lindgren. The super shoe advantage is real. I it worth 3 seconds? If it is, that makes Rupp the best. If it is worth 9 seconds, it makes Lindgren second best. My sense is that it is worth more than 3 but less that 9 seconds.

All I remember is watching Don Sage run 8.42 and change for the 3200 and hearing later that day that Ritz had run 8.41.

Good points, I'd give Verzbicas 3 out 10 against Ritz in XC, everyone else since is at best 1 in 10 shot. Ritz would still be favored in my mind but Lukas would have been the only one that could have even realistically challenged him. Too bad Lukas didn't love running like Dathan did.