Please be respectful of Semenya when you post in this thread. Whether you agree or disagree with the idea that she should be allowed to compete in women's sports, please realize she is a human who might read what you are writing.
Given the sensitive nature of this topic, we are requiring registration to post. Registration is free and you can still remain anonymous, but it cuts down on troll posts.
and by the way, the number of times she describes herself as threatening or wanting to get into a fistfight with people, male or female, with supreme confidence in the outcome, what could possibly mark her out as more obviously male?
This post was edited 13 seconds after it was posted.
That last line is exactly the gist of why this book would be important. We are in a time where people are using religious books and religious education to exact a battle against anything not traditional.
Intersex exists.
People can't just wish differences away.
If we make this partisan, we're losing a lot more than we're gaining.
Agreed. But intersex athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete as women.
I agree with that premise. However, when Semenya was legally competing, that was then. I have to admit that I don't like what is happening here. Because of the push against transgender males competing against women (which is fine of its own accord) and because of the ambiguity of intersex, people here in 2023 are lambasting Semenya with the fervor against both transgender and intersex and making her responsible now for what she did legally then.
Semenya is allowed to have a story, and as much as tests were done and compliance was given, people may not like what happened, but it followed all rules until the rules switched.
To me, one of the most telling parts of the book is Semenya's account of what the first gynecologist who examined Semenya, Oscar Shimange - whom Semenya describes as an avuncular, kindly older black South African man - did and didn't do during the exam he performed in early August, 2009, before Semenya went to Berlin to compete and win in Semenya's first women's World Championship.
I think it's extremely revealing and signifcant that Semenya says Dr. Shimange never touched CS's genitals at all during his examination of the athlete.
As someone who has had gynecological exams more times in my life than I can count, I can attest that a standard gyn exam begins with the doctor or nurse carefully examining the external genitals both visually and manually. A routine gynecological exam or "pelvic" - especially when done to diagnose health problems or abnormalities - includes plenty of hands-on touching of the genitals. The gynecologist will separate the labia to check the folds of skin and inspect the constituent parts of the vulva for lumps, growths, irritation, rashes, abrasians, tenderness, proper healing of childbirth injuries, and normal and abnormal secretions; use the fingers to locate the vaginal entry and check that it's normal; use the fingers again to open the vaginal entry in order to insert a speculum or ultrasound wand; insert several fingers deep inside the vagina to palpate the cervix, uterus and ovaries...
But according to Semenya's own account, Shimange didn't do any of this when examining Semenya. Apparently based on just looking at CS's external genitals alone, the South African doctor knew enough not to proceed with any of the genital palpating and invasive internal probing that are normally part and parcel of a standard gynecological exam.
Instead, Dr. Shimange skipped all the customarily invasive palpating and probing of the external genitals and internal reproductive tract and went straight to getting an image of Semenya's internal organs by doing an non-invasive sonogram from the outside of Semenya's abdomen.
In Semenya's own words from the book (all the ellipses are Semenya's own; I haven't cut any part myself):
Dr. Shimange looked at my privates, he never touched me or asked me any questions during the exam. I couldn't tell from the expression on his face what he was thinking. At some point I felt the need to say something.
"And don't try anything funny with me, doc. I may be a girl, but I will beat you down like a man."
Dr. Shimange chuckled. He brought out a sonogram wand and placed it on my lower belly. He drew blood and then the exam was over. Once he was finished, I got dressed and we spoke as two humans, not as doctor and patient. I could tell that he was a good man.
"Caster... I am going to tell you the truth here. You are not built like most other women. I know you already know that. But these people are looking for a specific issue... a hormone in your blood called testosterone. Both men and women have this hormone, but you may have a higher level than the sports people allow for your gender. I am sorry... I think the results will show this is the situation with you, Caster. As a fellow African, I have to tell you... I think the chances of you running in the world's championships are very low."
I think the second examination is more telling - by CS's account the doctor wants to use an ultrasound wand vaginally; CS doesn't consent, insisting instead on a, ahem, backdoor approach despite this being almost certainly useless. CS characterises this as a kind of 'dirty protest' but for me the far more plausible interpretation is there was simply nowhere else for the wand to go.
I agree that the reason the doctors in Berlin probably administered an internal sonogram rectally was because there was nowhere else for a wand or other instrument to go.
But I don't buy that Semenya was the one who suggested using what you euphemistically call a "backdoor approach."
I also disagree with your view that this approach was/is "almost certainly useless."
A transrectal sonogran (TRS) is actually a common test used to look at male internal pelvic organs, such as the prostate gland and seminal vesicles.
TRS is a reliable means of determining the presence or absence of ovaries, Fallopian tubes and a uterus. I suspect that in someone like Semenya, there's a good chance that TRS can locate testes that are internal too.
In female patients who cannot have an ultrasound wand or other instrument inserted in the vagina for any of a number of physical, psychological or cultural reasons - including DSDs that occur in female patients like MRKH - TRS is often used as an alternative to TVS to get images of the internal organs of the female pelvis that are as good as, or better than, the images provided by transabdominal sonogram or TAS.
A large study of 963 women in Korea published in 2015 found that "transrectal ultrasound assessment is as effective as conventional transvaginal ultrasound for the detection of PCOS [polycystic ovarian syndrome] in virgin patients."
Another study at New York University published in 2003 found that in 42 female patients ranging in age from 12 to 91 who underwent TRS because they were unable to have TVS, "the [TRS] images proved to be at least as good, but generally of better quality and better resolution than were the images obtained by TAS."
TRS was clearly superior to TAS in 31 cases. In nine cases TAS furnished some clinical information but TRS yielded better images. Only in one such case was TAS similar in quality to TRS. In four obese patients TAS did not reveal sufficient pelvic anatomy to generate a clinical diagnosis, whereas TRS revealed two sets of normal ovaries and two patients with ovarian cysts. In the two cases with vaginal agenesis TRS revealed the diagnosis of Rokitansky–Küster syndrome. In three of the four patients with ruptured membranes the cervix could be measured precisely [through TRS].
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Agreed. But intersex athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete as women.
I agree with that premise. However, when Semenya was legally competing, that was then. I have to admit that I don't like what is happening here. Because of the push against transgender males competing against women (which is fine of its own accord) and because of the ambiguity of intersex, people here in 2023 are lambasting Semenya with the fervor against both transgender and intersex and making her responsible now for what she did legally then.
Semenya is allowed to have a story, and as much as tests were done and compliance was given, people may not like what happened, but it followed all rules until the rules switched.
Please don't use the outdated, inaccurate term "intersex" for Semenya or other persons with differences or disorders of sex development or DSDs. This term gives the misleading impression that people with DSDs are either a fuzzy, uncanny combination of the two sexes or they occupy some strange no-man's/no-woman's land in between the two sexes and thus are beyond classification. When, in fact, most DSDs are sex-specific, affecting only males or only females.
In Semenya's newly-published memoir, recent guest essay in the NY Times and recent press interview, Semenya has said that Semenya is one of the many people with DSDs around the world who reject the "intersex" label because they see it as stigmatizing. Indeed, Semenya is on record saying Semenya finds the "intersex" label insulting, othering and dehumanizing.
Also, I think it's a mistake to allege that the negative reactions that Semenya is now garnering on LRC and elsewhere is due to Semenya being unfairly tarnished by spillover fallout from the strong pushback against trans-identified males competing in women's sports that's emerged in the last couple of years.
Questions about Semenya's sex and the veracity of Semenya's "raised as a girl" backstory have been swirling ever since Semenya first began running in girls' meets and smashing national and southern African regional records in the female youth category circa 2006-7, more than half Semenya's lifetime ago.
Ever since Semenya first became internationally famous as South Africa's "golden girl" runner after Athletics South Africa put Semenya on the world stage by entering Semenya in the women's category at the IAAF World Championships Berlin in 2009, many people far and wide have suspected that Athletics South Africa and Semenya have been hiding the truth about Semenya's sex and DSD in order to game the system and get an easy way to obtain sports gold and glory - and gain political advantage.
Just go back and read the press coverage about Semenya in chronological order as Semenya's story unfolded, starting when Semenya first became world-famous after becoming IAAF women's 800m World Champion for the first time in 2009. You'll see that the negative reactions Semenya is getting now are not new - and they predated the current furor over trans-identified male athletes in girls' and women's sports by more than a decade.
If you trace Semenya's story as it unfolded in real time, you might even come to understand why many people believe, fairly or unfairly, that there's ample grounds to suspect that the Semenya saga amounts to a long con cooked up by corrupt sports officials in South Africa circa 2007 and perpetrated with audacity on the entire world for all the years since.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
I think the second examination is more telling - by CS's account the doctor wants to use an ultrasound wand vaginally; CS doesn't consent, insisting instead on a, ahem, backdoor approach despite this being almost certainly useless. CS characterises this as a kind of 'dirty protest' but for me the far more plausible interpretation is there was simply nowhere else for the wand to go.
I agree that the reason the doctors in Berlin probably administered an internal sonogram rectally was because there was nowhere else for a wand or other instrument to go.
But I don't buy that Semenya was the one who suggested using what you euphemistically call a "backdoor approach."
I also disagree with your view that this approach was/is "almost certainly useless."
A transrectal sonogran (TRS) is actually a common test used to look at male internal pelvic organs, such as the prostate gland and seminal vesicles.
TRS is a reliable means of determining the presence or absence of ovaries, Fallopian tubes and a uterus. I suspect that in someone like Semenya, there's a good chance that TRS can locate testes that are internal too.
In female patients who cannot have an ultrasound wand or other instrument inserted in the vagina for any of a number of physical, psychological or cultural reasons - including DSDs that occur in female patients like MRKH - TRS is often used as an alternative to TVS to get images of the internal organs of the female pelvis that are as good as, or better than, the images provided by transabdominal sonogram or TAS.
A large study of 963 women in Korea published in 2015 found that "transrectal ultrasound assessment is as effective as conventional transvaginal ultrasound for the detection of PCOS [polycystic ovarian syndrome] in virgin patients."
Another study at New York University published in 2003 found that in 42 female patients ranging in age from 12 to 91 who underwent TRS because they were unable to have TVS, "the [TRS] images proved to be at least as good, but generally of better quality and better resolution than were the images obtained by TAS."
TRS was clearly superior to TAS in 31 cases. In nine cases TAS furnished some clinical information but TRS yielded better images. Only in one such case was TAS similar in quality to TRS. In four obese patients TAS did not reveal sufficient pelvic anatomy to generate a clinical diagnosis, whereas TRS revealed two sets of normal ovaries and two patients with ovarian cysts. In the two cases with vaginal agenesis TRS revealed the diagnosis of Rokitansky–Küster syndrome. In three of the four patients with ruptured membranes the cervix could be measured precisely [through TRS].
sounds like you know a lot more about scans than me but CS absolutely characterises it as her decision.
why did they need to look inside my vagina? It’s one thing to spread my legs and let them look and touch me, but this, this was a whole other level.
Maybe there was another option.
“Look,” I said to the translator, “I will not allow that. If they have to stick that sh1t in me … they’re going to have to find another way … they can go in my a$.”
This post was edited 22 seconds after it was posted.
I agree with that premise. However, when Semenya was legally competing, that was then. I have to admit that I don't like what is happening here. Because of the push against transgender males competing against women (which is fine of its own accord) and because of the ambiguity of intersex, people here in 2023 are lambasting Semenya with the fervor against both transgender and intersex and making her responsible now for what she did legally then.
Semenya is allowed to have a story, and as much as tests were done and compliance was given, people may not like what happened, but it followed all rules until the rules switched.
Please don't use the outdated, inaccurate term "intersex" for Semenya or other persons with differences or disorders of sex development or DSDs. This term gives the misleading impression that people with DSDs are either a fuzzy, uncanny combination of the two sexes or they occupy some strange no-man's/no-woman's land in between the two sexes and thus are beyond classification. When, in fact, most DSDs are sex-specific, affecting only males or only females.
In Semenya's newly-published memoir, recent guest essay in the NY Times and recent press interview, Semenya has said that Semenya is one of the many people with DSDs around the world who reject the "intersex" label because they see it as stigmatizing. Indeed, Semenya is on record saying Semenya finds the "intersex" label insulting, othering and dehumanizing.
Also, I think it's a mistake to allege that the negative reactions that Semenya is now garnering on LRC and elsewhere is due to Semenya being unfairly tarnished by spillover fallout from the strong pushback against trans-identified males competing in women's sports that's emerged in the last couple of years.
Questions about Semenya's sex and the veracity of Semenya's "raised as a girl" backstory have been swirling ever since Semenya first began running in girls' meets and smashing national and southern African regional records in the female youth category circa 2006-7, more than half Semenya's lifetime ago.
Ever since Semenya first became internationally famous as South Africa's "golden girl" runner after Athletics South Africa put Semenya on the world stage by entering Semenya in the women's category at the IAAF World Championships Berlin in 2009, many people far and wide have suspected that Athletics South Africa and Semenya have been hiding the truth about Semenya's sex and DSD in order to game the system and get an easy way to obtain sports gold and glory - and gain political advantage.
Just go back and read the press coverage about Semenya in chronological order as Semenya's story unfolded, starting when Semenya first became world-famous after becoming IAAF women's 800m World Champion for the first time in 2009. You'll see that the negative reactions Semenya is getting now are not new - and they predated the current furor over trans-identified male athletes in girls' and women's sports by more than a decade.
If you trace Semenya's story as it unfolded in real time, you might even come to understand why many people believe, fairly or unfairly, that there's ample grounds to suspect that the Semenya saga amounts to a long con cooked up by corrupt sports officials in South Africa circa 2007 and perpetrated with audacity on the entire world for all the years since.
The complexities are far more than just the insinuation that South Africa was gaming the system to just let a man compete. If it was simple, there would not have been the legal clearances by IAAF and CAS to begin with.
In order to begin to stipulate that Semenya was in on any scheme, you would have to have her accept the identity that would be male, if that was the case.
With ambiguous genitalia, Semenya grew up as she would have been identified as far as she knew. Therefore, Semenya grew up as a female because the very organs that would define actual manhood were not visibly present.
Having watched races with Caster Semenya in them and replaying them, you can see that Semenya does not have the stride that a biological male would. Whether or not her pelvic girdle shifted would be indicative of the ambiguity, as the pelvic girdle shifts at puberty for adolescents.
She does not run with a direct driving stride like a full biological male.
Had something untoward been going on with the South African Federation, there would have been too much suspicion for Semenya not to compete to begin with. But Semenya was cleared, tested multiple times and cleared up until she was not. Whether some of her competitors or their fans felt cheated or not would have to fall within complaint of the agencies that approved her competing. I'm confused about the anger against Semenya now in 2023 with the book because, from quoted snippets I've seen and within the interview, what she is representing is pretty much exactly how she lived and competed. No athletes nor their fans are more important than the ruling bodies that govern the sport. This seems like a non -issue because those that matter at race time said yes.
Rojo, the issue goes beyond sports. It has become political. That is why sports bodies - which try to deal with it as a sports issue relating to protecting the women's category in sports - come up against a wider view driven by an ideology that holds discrimination of any kind is a social evil. In most areas of life, such as employment and treatment of the individual relating to social rights, that is true - race and gender shouldn't matter.
Can you name any "human rights organization" that is against any rule set by any "sports body"? Organizations like ACLU, Human Rights Campaign, National Women's Law Center are not backing any lawsuit against "sports bodies" like World Athletics and World Aquatics. They are backing lawsuits against state governments, which have more exclusive policies than any "sports body."
That raises the question of who is "politicizing" the issue? People who are suing the state governments, or state governments that overrode the policies of "sports bodies"?
With ambiguous genitalia, Semenya grew up as she would have been identified as far as she knew. Therefore, Semenya grew up as a female because the very organs that would define actual manhood were not visibly present.
It seems that you hew to same phallocentric view that Semenya appears to hold - which is that if "the very organs that would define manhood were not visibly present" in a baby or young child, then that child must be female.
Most female human beings don't see it that way. We believe we are female because we have distinctly female anatomy, physiology, genetics, chromosomes, bodily processes, chemistry and potential capacities. We don't define femaleness in humans as absence of "the very organs that would define actual manhood." We define femaleness in our species as the presence of the thousands of distinctly female physical characteristics that set our sex apart from, and make it very different to, your sex - and Semenya's.
The idea that female human beings are people whose telltale defining feature is that we lack dicks and visible balls hanging between our legs is an insulting, cockamamie notion that some men who are enamored of, and fixated on, their own genitals came up with - and which only some men believe. It's not a universal view. Even macho man Ernest Hemingway didn't buy it.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
With ambiguous genitalia, Semenya grew up as she would have been identified as far as she knew. Therefore, Semenya grew up as a female because the very organs that would define actual manhood were not visibly present.
It seems that you hew to same phallocentric view that Semenya appears to hold - which is that if "the very organs that would define manhood were not visibly present" in a baby or young child, then that child must be female.
Most female human beings don't see it that way. We believe we are female because we have distinctly female anatomy, physiology, genetics, chromosomes, bodily processes, chemistry and potential capacities. We don't define femaleness in humans as absence of "the very organs that would define actual manhood." We define femaleness in our species as the presence of the thousands of distinctly female physical characteristics that set our sex apart from, and make it very different to, your sex - and Semenya's.
The idea that female human beings are people whose telltale defining feature is that we lack dicks and visible balls hanging between our legs is an insulting, cockamamie notion that some men who are enamored of, and fixated on, their own genitals came up with - and which only some men believe. It's not a universal view. Even macho man Ernest Hemingway didn't buy it.
It's not about my view. It's about what IAAF and CAS accepted, which eventually changed. I believe in science. I believe in scientific expertise. If the very genitalia which scientifically determines sex of a person is ambiguous then the actual sex is ambiguous... genetically.
I respect your take on it, but a belief is not a judgment regardless of the degree to which a person believes it.
Semenya, had her case been so egregious that it had no merit, would have unequivocally been denied the right to compete... she wasn't for a good while.
Your label of phallocentric, while fully encapsulating your personal angst, does not address the possibility that people who love the sport also believe in the judgment of the regulatory agencies.
If USADA or WADA finds someone doping, I find them to be a doper.
If the Olympic committee finds someone cheating (see illegal dolphin kick.. even though it's swimming)...I believe they cheated.
That's all negative.
But if IAAF and CAS have ruled in the affirmative, I don't need to be a male to agree or a female to disagree.
You're traipsing into making it a standpoint standoff based on biological sex and approval of Semenya and it's not that way.
How has Semenya competing actually hurt you in any way?
Please don't use the outdated, inaccurate term "intersex" for Semenya or other persons with differences or disorders of sex development or DSDs. This term gives the misleading impression that people with DSDs are either a fuzzy, uncanny combination of the two sexes or they occupy some strange no-man's/no-woman's land in between the two sexes and thus are beyond classification. When, in fact, most DSDs are sex-specific, affecting only males or only females.
In Semenya's newly-published memoir, recent guest essay in the NY Times and recent press interview, Semenya has said that Semenya is one of the many people with DSDs around the world who reject the "intersex" label because they see it as stigmatizing. Indeed, Semenya is on record saying Semenya finds the "intersex" label insulting, othering and dehumanizing.
Also, I think it's a mistake to allege that the negative reactions that Semenya is now garnering on LRC and elsewhere is due to Semenya being unfairly tarnished by spillover fallout from the strong pushback against trans-identified males competing in women's sports that's emerged in the last couple of years.
Questions about Semenya's sex and the veracity of Semenya's "raised as a girl" backstory have been swirling ever since Semenya first began running in girls' meets and smashing national and southern African regional records in the female youth category circa 2006-7, more than half Semenya's lifetime ago.
Ever since Semenya first became internationally famous as South Africa's "golden girl" runner after Athletics South Africa put Semenya on the world stage by entering Semenya in the women's category at the IAAF World Championships Berlin in 2009, many people far and wide have suspected that Athletics South Africa and Semenya have been hiding the truth about Semenya's sex and DSD in order to game the system and get an easy way to obtain sports gold and glory - and gain political advantage.
Just go back and read the press coverage about Semenya in chronological order as Semenya's story unfolded, starting when Semenya first became world-famous after becoming IAAF women's 800m World Champion for the first time in 2009. You'll see that the negative reactions Semenya is getting now are not new - and they predated the current furor over trans-identified male athletes in girls' and women's sports by more than a decade.
If you trace Semenya's story as it unfolded in real time, you might even come to understand why many people believe, fairly or unfairly, that there's ample grounds to suspect that the Semenya saga amounts to a long con cooked up by corrupt sports officials in South Africa circa 2007 and perpetrated with audacity on the entire world for all the years since.
The complexities are far more than just the insinuation that South Africa was gaming the system to just let a man compete. If it was simple, there would not have been the legal clearances by IAAF and CAS to begin with.
In order to begin to stipulate that Semenya was in on any scheme, you would have to have her accept the identity that would be male, if that was the case.
With ambiguous genitalia, Semenya grew up as she would have been identified as far as she knew. Therefore, Semenya grew up as a female because the very organs that would define actual manhood were not visibly present.
Having watched races with Caster Semenya in them and replaying them, you can see that Semenya does not have the stride that a biological male would. Whether or not her pelvic girdle shifted would be indicative of the ambiguity, as the pelvic girdle shifts at puberty for adolescents.
She does not run with a direct driving stride like a full biological male.
Had something untoward been going on with the South African Federation, there would have been too much suspicion for Semenya not to compete to begin with. But Semenya was cleared, tested multiple times and cleared up until she was not. Whether some of her competitors or their fans felt cheated or not would have to fall within complaint of the agencies that approved her competing. I'm confused about the anger against Semenya now in 2023 with the book because, from quoted snippets I've seen and within the interview, what she is representing is pretty much exactly how she lived and competed. No athletes nor their fans are more important than the ruling bodies that govern the sport. This seems like a non -issue because those that matter at race time said yes.
Your nonsense about how she strides is nonsense. You see what you want to see. She isn't built like a woman and she doesn't run like one - if you think there's a difference. I and many others see a man running out there.
It seems that you hew to same phallocentric view that Semenya appears to hold - which is that if "the very organs that would define manhood were not visibly present" in a baby or young child, then that child must be female.
Most female human beings don't see it that way. We believe we are female because we have distinctly female anatomy, physiology, genetics, chromosomes, bodily processes, chemistry and potential capacities. We don't define femaleness in humans as absence of "the very organs that would define actual manhood." We define femaleness in our species as the presence of the thousands of distinctly female physical characteristics that set our sex apart from, and make it very different to, your sex - and Semenya's.
The idea that female human beings are people whose telltale defining feature is that we lack dicks and visible balls hanging between our legs is an insulting, cockamamie notion that some men who are enamored of, and fixated on, their own genitals came up with - and which only some men believe. It's not a universal view. Even macho man Ernest Hemingway didn't buy it.
It's not about my view. It's about what IAAF and CAS accepted, which eventually changed. I believe in science. I believe in scientific expertise. If the very genitalia which scientifically determines sex of a person is ambiguous then the actual sex is ambiguous... genetically.
I respect your take on it, but a belief is not a judgment regardless of the degree to which a person believes it.
Semenya, had her case been so egregious that it had no merit, would have unequivocally been denied the right to compete... she wasn't for a good while.
Your label of phallocentric, while fully encapsulating your personal angst, does not address the possibility that people who love the sport also believe in the judgment of the regulatory agencies.
If USADA or WADA finds someone doping, I find them to be a doper.
If the Olympic committee finds someone cheating (see illegal dolphin kick.. even though it's swimming)...I believe they cheated.
That's all negative.
But if IAAF and CAS have ruled in the affirmative, I don't need to be a male to agree or a female to disagree.
You're traipsing into making it a standpoint standoff based on biological sex and approval of Semenya and it's not that way.
How has Semenya competing actually hurt you in any way?
There is nothing ambiguous about testicles - whether external or internal.
to give a rough indication of how far into trolling mode CS is at times in this book she includes a photo of herself in swimwear at the beach aged 15. she looks exactly as you'd expect in it and then some.
But how does this matter? Most people on this board agree that no one born with Y chromosome and testes should be allowed to compete against women. Full Stop. So how Semenya looks in swimsuit should be absolutely irrelevant.
Or are you suggesting that World Athletics is on to something, and how Semenya's body responded to testosterone and masculinized actually matter? And you disagree with the vast majority of posters here?
Rojo, the issue goes beyond sports. It has become political. That is why sports bodies - which try to deal with it as a sports issue relating to protecting the women's category in sports - come up against a wider view driven by an ideology that holds discrimination of any kind is a social evil. In most areas of life, such as employment and treatment of the individual relating to social rights, that is true - race and gender shouldn't matter.
Can you name any "human rights organization" that is against any rule set by any "sports body"? Organizations like ACLU, Human Rights Campaign, National Women's Law Center are not backing any lawsuit against "sports bodies" like World Athletics and World Aquatics. They are backing lawsuits against state governments, which have more exclusive policies than any "sports body."
That raises the question of who is "politicizing" the issue? People who are suing the state governments, or state governments that overrode the policies of "sports bodies"?
"Political" is being used in the wider sense, that the argument is ideological as distinct from scientific in nature. That is why we see an unresolved debate between the positions of "inclusivity" and "fairness". It isn't necessary for human rights organisations to be involved or even to seek to overrule sports bodies for it to be a political issue, only that within a society the issue has taken on an ideological perspective. If it were not so there would be no debate and no controversy and the sports bodies would not be under any pressure to try to reconcile these competing perspectives.
to give a rough indication of how far into trolling mode CS is at times in this book she includes a photo of herself in swimwear at the beach aged 15. she looks exactly as you'd expect in it and then some.
But how does this matter? Most people on this board agree that no one born with Y chromosome and testes should be allowed to compete against women. Full Stop. So how Semenya looks in swimsuit should be absolutely irrelevant.
Or are you suggesting that World Athletics is on to something, and how Semenya's body responded to testosterone and masculinized actually matter? And you disagree with the vast majority of posters here?
How she looks in a swimsuit is, to the average person, somewhat at odds with her claim to be a "woman".
and by the way, the number of times she describes herself as threatening or wanting to get into a fistfight with people, male or female, with supreme confidence in the outcome, what could possibly mark her out as more obviously male?
Isn't this an example of "regressive, misogynist sex stereotype"? How does this make Semenya "obviously male"?
Would it make any difference if Semenya were a type of person who would avoid any physical confrontation? Would it be okay for Semenya to compete against women if she were that kind of person?
Please don't use the outdated, inaccurate term "intersex" for Semenya or other persons with differences or disorders of sex development or DSDs. This term gives the misleading impression that people with DSDs are either a fuzzy, uncanny combination of the two sexes or they occupy some strange no-man's/no-woman's land in between the two sexes and thus are beyond classification. When, in fact, most DSDs are sex-specific, affecting only males or only females.
Do you accept this person as a woman? You linked her blog to this site, so I am curious.
I am a 40-something woman with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. My life is now pretty great, I have a family through adoption and love my job – and hope to increasingly work with ch…
But how does this matter? Most people on this board agree that no one born with Y chromosome and testes should be allowed to compete against women. Full Stop. So how Semenya looks in swimsuit should be absolutely irrelevant.
Or are you suggesting that World Athletics is on to something, and how Semenya's body responded to testosterone and masculinized actually matter? And you disagree with the vast majority of posters here?
How she looks in a swimsuit is, to the average person, somewhat at odds with her claim to be a "woman".
for me it's a big leery wink that at a stroke negates all the "raised as a girl"/"thought I was a girl" nonsense. this is a photo in CS's own book, ie it's one she chose/one of her favourites. taken on a school trip so presumably by a teacher. I know it was nearly 20 years ago and in Africa but on what planet does a teacher, who in the course of their work has presumably come into contact with hundreds/thousands of 15 girls, see someone with this kind of physique and who chooses to dress like this and think that this is a girl in any meaningful sense, either psychically or socially?
and by the way, the number of times she describes herself as threatening or wanting to get into a fistfight with people, male or female, with supreme confidence in the outcome, what could possibly mark her out as more obviously male?
Isn't this an example of "regressive, misogynist sex stereotype"? How does this make Semenya "obviously male"?
Would it make any difference if Semenya were a type of person who would avoid any physical confrontation? Would it be okay for Semenya to compete against women if she were that kind of person?
You continue to deflect. The point being made above has nothing to do with whether it would be ok for Semenya to compete against women if she weren't aggressive but that the level of aggression she claims to have shown undermines her claim to be female, since it is more characteristic of young males. Personally, I am more persuaded of her maleness by her XY chromosomes and that she has testes that produce male levels of testosterone, among other male features like greater muscle and bone mass. She is actually a bloke. A confused bloke.
Please don't use the outdated, inaccurate term "intersex" for Semenya or other persons with differences or disorders of sex development or DSDs. This term gives the misleading impression that people with DSDs are either a fuzzy, uncanny combination of the two sexes or they occupy some strange no-man's/no-woman's land in between the two sexes and thus are beyond classification. When, in fact, most DSDs are sex-specific, affecting only males or only females.
Do you accept this person as a woman? You linked her blog to this site, so I am curious.
I might point out in response to that blog that complete androgen insensitivity syndrome has been found amongst some women athletes. They can compete as females under the present rules because they do not have male levels of testosterone. As with the woman above, despite being XY their condition makes them under-masculinized, so they appear female. But that isn't so with Semenya. That isn't her condition. She produces male levels of testosterone.
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