Semenya says in the NYT article that Semenya doesn't feel the term "intersex" is apt. Many people with DSDs and their families eschew the term as well and wish that others wouldn't use it, albeit for different reasons than Semenya.
No, that is just silly intersexphobes like Verbosa that insist on a term being offensive to DSDs when the DSD folks themselves have no problem with it. It’s a convenient way to deny the existence of intersex people because it is inconvenient to reconcile it with the religion of the sex binary.
Any time an X-phobe makes an argument about how something is offensive to X (e.g., “low bigotry of soft expectations”), it is just to further their let-X-go-to-hell agenda.
Semenya says in the NYT article that Semenya doesn't feel the term "intersex" is apt.
I agree that "intersex" isn't the best term because it misleads people into thinking that Semenya is half female.
But "intersex" is a slight improvement over what the media called Semenya for years which was "female with natural high testosterone" which was total BS.
A more accurate term than "intersex" is "biological male without a penis."
World Athletics considers her female. It also considers transwomen Transgender Females and formally defines that term.
Sounds like you don’t want to subscribe to the rules of the sport’s worldwide governing body, so maybe running isn’t for you.
Good for you. Run against those with a similar condition or “round up” and run with men.
Caster running against females and winning is like the middle school kid who stayed back three years and now “dominates” his classmates in sports. In other words, it means NOTHING.
So where do you put intersex athletes?
With other intersex athletes, male to female transgender, etc.
People would still watch as Caster Is a tremendous athlete.
So where do you put intersex athletes? Be that as it may, Semenya did not beat the best times for either Mu, who would come later or Kratochvilova. An intersex person designated as female does not have the entire sex hormone basis of a male and, as we saw with Semenya, does not have the body to run 1:45 or faster. They have ambiguous genitalia and therefore don't have the female make up in full either. Intersex people would dominate Paralympics because their difference is not a hindrance. During her competition time, Semenya was compliant with rules and testing. The way she was treated was rather disrespectful because she had no bad attitude to her competitors... she just wanted to compete. Moving forward, where do you put an athlete like Semenya?
She can run with those who are totally equal to her or she doesn't run...yes, it's really that simple. Everyone doesn't have the right to have everything personally accommodated for them in life...no sir, that's called a "suck it up" example of one and you just move on.
I agree with this post 1000%! Everyone wants to everyone to bend for them, total bs!
Semenya says in the NYT article that Semenya doesn't feel the term "intersex" is apt. Many people with DSDs and their families eschew the term as well and wish that others wouldn't use it, albeit for different reasons than Semenya.
No, that is just silly intersexphobes like Verbosa that insist on a term being offensive to DSDs when the DSD folks themselves have no problem with it. It’s a convenient way to deny the existence of intersex people because it is inconvenient to reconcile it with the religion of the sex binary.
Any time an X-phobe makes an argument about how something is offensive to X (e.g., “low bigotry of soft expectations”), it is just to further their let-X-go-to-hell agenda.
Oh good grief. Once again, you've popped up under yet another fickle user name to repeat the idiotic claim you and and HobbyJogger continually make that anyone who differs with you two blokes about which terms best describe a person, group, health condition or characteristic - and which category they best fit in - is "denying the existence of" the very person, group, condition, characteristic being discussed.
It's as moronic and puerile as alleging that anyone who prefers the Scottish colloquialism bairns over the British word sprogs and the North American term rugrats is somehow denying the existence of children.
BTW, Semenya is apparently amongst those you'd slag off as "silly intersexphobes." Contrary to your confident, wholly unsubstantiated assertion that "the DSD folks themselves have no problem with" the term "intersex," Semenya says in the NYT piece that Semenya is one of the many individuals with DSDs who find the term "intersex" inapt, disparaging and othering.
Semenya rejects the prospect of running "in some future intersex category, should it ever become available" on the grounds that it's "insulting" and would mean "accepting being othered":
"participating in a third category of human gender identity [and competition] would be accepting being othered, accepting the discrimination that I had fought against.... Even though I understand that those in the medical community call me an intersex person because of the way my internal organs are structured, I do not call myself intersex. That identity doesn’t fit me; it doesn’t fit my soul."
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I'm not sure which stroke of luck was greater for Mu: being born with incredible natural talent or being born late enough to avoid the "Intersex era" of the 800.
No, that's not correct. Semenya took advantage of a court case that temporary allowed Semenya to run even though it was AGAINST the rules.
Fortunately, the court eventually came to it's senses and finally allowed the rules to be enforced.
I feel sorry for the biological females who lost medals, prize money, and sponsorship opportunities just because a stupid court temporarily thought it was OK for biological males to compete against biological females.
The court said it was okay. I can accept that.
And then the court came to its senses and said it's not OK. I can accept that.
An intersex person designated as female does not have the entire sex hormone basis of a male and, as we saw with Semenya, does not have the body to run 1:45 or faster. They have ambiguous genitalia and therefore don't have the female make up in full either.
So what, most males don't run 1:45 themselves, just because Caster wasn't able to run faster than Mu or Kratochvilova, means nothing relating which category 'she' can run in
Oh good grief. Once again, you've popped up under yet another fickle user name to repeat the idiotic claim you and and HobbyJogger continually make that anyone who differs with you two blokes about which terms best describe a person, group, health condition or characteristic - and which category they best fit in - is "denying the existence of" the very person, group, condition, characteristic being discussed.
You cited this person on another thread, and I asked you whether you consider this person a "woman." According to your ideology, this person must be a "man" because she was born with Y chromosome and testes. But she calls herself "a 40-something woman" in her self-introduction.
You have not answered my question, and I am still waiting for your answer.
I am a 40-something woman with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. My life is now pretty great, I have a family through adoption and love my job – and hope to increasingly work with ch…
No, that is just silly intersexphobes like Verbosa that insist on a term being offensive to DSDs when the DSD folks themselves have no problem with it. It’s a convenient way to deny the existence of intersex people because it is inconvenient to reconcile it with the religion of the sex binary.
Any time an X-phobe makes an argument about how something is offensive to X (e.g., “low bigotry of soft expectations”), it is just to further their let-X-go-to-hell agenda.
Oh good grief. Once again, you've popped up under yet another fickle user name to repeat the idiotic claim you and and HobbyJogger continually make that anyone who differs with you two blokes about which terms best describe a person, group, health condition or characteristic - and which category they best fit in - is "denying the existence of" the very person, group, condition, characteristic being discussed.
It's as moronic and puerile as alleging that anyone who prefers the Scottish colloquialism bairns over the British word sprogs and the North American term rugrats is somehow denying the existence of children.
Really? It’s easy to settle not only who the moron is but also who is being disingenuous:
Just say “I believe intersex people exist” and I’ll give you this one.
Good for you. Run against those with a similar condition or “round up” and run with men.
Caster running against females and winning is like the middle school kid who stayed back three years and now “dominates” his classmates in sports. In other words, it means NOTHING.
So where do you put intersex athletes?
In amateur wrestling, a wrestler whose natural weight is at the lower end of a weight class has two options. Either to cut their weight below their natural level and compete in the lower weight division, or bulk up and compete in the higher weight division. For example, if you weigh 59kg, you cut your weight to 57kg or you compete in the 65kg division.
The options given to Semenya are quite similar. Either to lower her t-level to compete in the women's division, or take no medicine and compete in the men's division. This was a very generous offer, because lowering the current t-level does not erase the "legacy advantage" she has accumulated from higher testosterone level in the past. In swimming, she would not be allowed to compete at any sanctioned event, because she had not started cross hormone therapy before age 12. But World Athletics has decided that would be enough to level the playing field. If it turns out not to be the case, and someone with DSD runs very fast under the new rule, we should expect more rule changes in future.
Is that fair? I don't know. But the sports categories are never meant to be fair to every single athlete. In the above wrestling example, the 59kg guy could compete in the 61kg division in the world championships, or any other non-Olympic events. But there is no weight class between 57kg and 65kg in the Olympics. So he is stuck between weight classes. In the meantime, some athletes are at the higher end of weight divisions at their natural weight. Someone whose normal weight is 64kg has enormous advantage over the 59kg guy. But we cannot make it fair for everyone.
It's crazy that they're so fixated on testosterone when it's just one of many advantages. The other advantages cannot be undone (not that historically higher testosterone levels can be either). I could list off all of these advantages but they're easily found with a search. It isn't a level playing field even after testosterone is completely taken out of the equation.
Gender and sex are two different things. I think that someone should have the right to live their life free of persecution and be treated well. But we do not have the 'right' to compete in high level sports. No one is saying that Caster cannot compete just that it has to be fair for the majority. And it's better to be fairer for the majority than to suit one person. Caster may be disadvantaged by competing in the open men's race but EVERY other woman is disadvantaged by Caster competing in the open women's race.
I also want to add that how Caster was treated especially by some of the doctors was absolutely disgusting and I do not support that.
When the sun burns out we will still remember liberalism as the cousin that nods at all the science, solemnly accepts the social justice arguments against discrimination while finding any actual liberation disgusting.
On any subject under the sun, including pale skinned northern hemisphere XY v XY violence you can reliably log on here for notes from the anguished inner mind of the bosses of the world. The undying flames of conservatism - whether self-confessing or presenting as liberal would rather extinguish the species than allow emancipation. Suck it up they tell us.
When the sun burns out we will still remember liberalism as the cousin that nods at all the science, solemnly accepts the social justice arguments against discrimination while finding any actual liberation disgusting.
On any subject under the sun, including pale skinned northern hemisphere XY v XY violence you can reliably log on here for notes from the anguished inner mind of the bosses of the world. The undying flames of conservatism - whether self-confessing or presenting as liberal would rather extinguish the species than allow emancipation. Suck it up they tell us.
As long as conservatives insist on "the natural order" of life and denounce anything that differs from this order, especially as espoused by its evangelicals, they are not supporting liberation unless it's their freedom to do what they want.
I actually do have more sympathy for Caster than I do for the trans HS kids beating up on girls’ times.
Caster was born with a sh*tty physical condition and clearly struggles to come to terms with it. I can empathize with that more than with the 100% biological boys who claim they feel like girls and then celebrate stealing their medals.
However, no chance in hell Caster should ever have ever competed against women. Just accept that your physiology prevents you from being an Olympic athlete, just like 99.9% of the world’s population, and move on.
