Racing flats and spikes traditionally emphasized on being lightweight as possible with just enough cushioning. Modern racing shoes are now designed to propel the user forward unnaturally.
That's the marketing. If it were true everyone would have the same shoes and get the same results. They don't.
It isn't marketing, there's an engineered advantage.
Now you can take over the thread and drone on and on about doping.
That's the marketing. If it were true everyone would have the same shoes and get the same results. They don't.
It isn't marketing, there's an engineered advantage.
Now you can take over the thread and drone on and on about doping.
Just like you guys drone on about the "shoes" and "engineered advantage". You can only argue it must be down to the shoes if doping isn't a significant feature in the sport. But it is.
This post was edited 19 seconds after it was posted.
Have the improvements in WRs or average performances between 2016-2023 been statistically greater than the improvements across any of the last several 7-year periods? I don't think they have, but I will change my opinion is proof is offered
It's not just the outliers that set the world records. Times have improved greatly at every level since the introduction of the shoes.
It's the shoes.
If it isn't the shoes, and it's the training, then explain how the training has changed. You can't. Nobody can.
Which brings us back to the thing that can be explained - the shoes.
You keep ignoring the elephant in the room. It isn't shoes. But it's in the body.
It's not just the outliers that set the world records. Times have improved greatly at every level since the introduction of the shoes.
It's the shoes.
If it isn't the shoes, and it's the training, then explain how the training has changed. You can't. Nobody can.
Which brings us back to the thing that can be explained - the shoes.
You keep ignoring the elephant in the room. It isn't shoes. But it's in the body.
Doping didn't start in 2016. Doping is only relevant at the very top of the sport. We get it, everyone dopes. But, this particular thread is about the shoes.
Yep. Shoes are the driving reason for massive improvements at the high school and college level. Also your average hobby marathoner. It is even possible that shoes help runners with borderline mechanics the most. One thing is clear, they don’t help everyone the same amount.
It gets harder to tease out at the pro level as you have inconsistent drug use/testing , some race distances are not contested regularly, championship races are often tactical. So it is harder to tell. Most certainly shoes are driving new records along with doping though.
Have the improvements in WRs or average performances between 2016-2023 been statistically greater than the improvements across any of the last several 7-year periods? I don't think they have, but I will change my opinion is proof is offered
It's not just the outliers that set the world records. Times have improved greatly at every level since the introduction of the shoes.
It's the shoes.
If it isn't the shoes, and it's the training, then explain how the training has changed. You can't. Nobody can.
Which brings us back to the thing that can be explained - the shoes.
I'm not looking for rhetoric. Again - I am perfectly happy to accept this hypothesis if any proof is offered
Why do some people deny the impact of cheater shoes?
Do you ever complain about cheater baseball gloves? They use to be much smaller 100 years ago than the huge baskets they wear today. Football use to use leather helmets with no face mask. Are todays carbon fiber helmets with face mask and visor cheater helmets? How about hockey goalies, back in the day they played without any headwear. Now look at what they wear. And all some people care to do now days is to complain about footwear. Sad and silly at the same time.
Tennis racquets, golf clubs. I bet table tennis paddles are more advanced than they used to be.
I agree that the shoe technology can go too far (and maybe the latest WR shoes for men and women cross the line) but things get better, that's all.
I like the carbon fiber shoes, maybe it's the midsole that can be regulated.
Whatever, but, I've said this before- most people here are way too young to remember the shoes of the late 60's through the 70's. I remember the waffle sole being cutting edge.
Google New Balance Tracksters. When I started running in 1971 those were the best shoes available. Tiger (ASICS) had some as well as Adidas and Nike, but they weren't any better than the NB.
While there is no doubt, carbon plate shoes allow most to run faster, at the top end, faster times are the result of new peds and more scientific approaches to ped use combined with lax anti doping over technology. So while science did lead to faster times it didn't come about in the way you imagine. But yes, the carbon stack shoes did allow a lot of people to bq or break 3 who probably wouldn't have otherwise.
Which new peds? What new approaches to ped use?
Still no response. Never taking you seriously again.
The data shows times got fastet on the road in 2016 and on the track starting 2020. Those are the years of road and track super shoe introduction.
99% of data is cited only to be lied about. Not that you actually cited any, just went straight to the lying.
Times generally get faster, it's normal. Overall there has been no acceleration in records. Marathon record is 3 minutes better over the past 15 years, normal improvement. 1500 is still 3:26. 3000 is still 7:20. steeple was barely broken after a long time, same with 5000 and 10,000.
women's records are inherently softer, their sport is newer, fewer athletes, more outliers. You will always have individuals popping up breaking all the records, no mystery there.
The data shows times got fastet on the road in 2016 and on the track starting 2020. Those are the years of road and track super shoe introduction.
99% of data is cited only to be lied about. Not that you actually cited any, just went straight to the lying.
Times generally get faster, it's normal. Overall there has been no acceleration in records. Marathon record is 3 minutes better over the past 15 years, normal improvement. 1500 is still 3:26. 3000 is still 7:20. steeple was barely broken after a long time, same with 5000 and 10,000.
women's records are inherently softer, their sport is newer, fewer athletes, more outliers. You will always have individuals popping up breaking all the records, no mystery there.
The WRs don't have to get faster to prove that the shoes work. As another poster mentioned, times have improved significantly across abilities starting around 2017 when the shoes were widely released to the public. Several lab studies and observational studies of race times have demonstrated huge improvements in people who wear the shoes versus those who stick to traditional flats.
In my opinion, the biggest ethical problem with the shoes is that response to them varies so widely. I don't want to see a person winning because they respond better to a shoe than another athlete (sometimes a better athlete).
All of that said, it's baffling to me that anybody could walk around in a pair of Vaporflys and not know immediately that they're gonna make you run faster (unless you're a non-responder). I thought the shoes were a marketing gimmick until I put them on my feet.
Racing flats and spikes traditionally emphasized on being lightweight as possible with just enough cushioning. Modern racing shoes are now designed to propel the user forward unnaturally.
That's the marketing. If it were true everyone would have the same shoes and get the same results. They don't.
If it was the training, everyone would train like Jakob or Eliud and everyone would get the same results. If it was the drugs, everyone would get the best drug and get exactly the same result. See how silly that sounds?
Different people respond differently to the same stimulus, whether it is training, shoes, surfaces, drugs. That is why there are hundreds of running shoe styles. But recently they are almost all high stack and /or rigid plate shoes and performances have been elevated.
times have improved significantly across abilities starting around 2017 when the shoes were widely released to the public. Several lab studies and observational studies of race times have demonstrated huge improvements in people who wear the shoes versus those who stick to traditional flats.
Please post these findings so we can discuss data like rational humans instead of flinging our notions and feelings at each other like monkeys
Have the improvements in WRs or average performances between 2016-2023 been statistically greater than the improvements across any of the last several 7-year periods? I don't think they have, but I will change my opinion is proof is offered
I don't think the WRs have. But it appears that the tier II runners have been getting faster. Maybe the shoes work less at the very top (because they can already do high mileage without breaking down)? Or the very top is doping less now than 10 - 20 years ago?
World records pre and post carbon shoes (road: 2016; track: 2019) Men Marathon 2:02:57 (’14) – 2:00:35 (’23) – 3.4 s/km in 9 years Half marathon 58:23 (’10) – 57:31 (’21) – 2.5 s/km in 11 years 10000 m 26:17.53 (’05) – 26:11.00 (‘20) – 0.7 s/km in 15 years 5000 m 12:37.35 (’04) – 12:35.36 (’20) – 0.4 s/km in 16 years 3000 m 7:20.67 (’96) – unchanged 1500 m 3:26.00 (’98) – unchanged 800 m 1:40.91 (’12) – unchanged 400 m 43.03 (’16) – unchanged 200 m 19.19 (’09) – unchanged 100 m 9.58 (’09) – unchanged
Women
Marathon 2:17:42 (’05) – 2:17:01 (’17) – 1.0 s/km in 12 years
Marathon 2:15:25 (’03) – 2:11:53 (’23) – 6.4 s/km in 20 years Half marathon 1:06:25 (’07)-- 1:05:16 (’20) – 3.3 s/km in 13 years 10000 m 29:17.45 (’16) – 29:01.03 (’21) – 1.6 s/km in 5 years 5000 m 14:11.15 (’08) – 14:00.21 (’23) – 2.2 s/km in 5 years 3000 m 8:06.11 (’93) – unchanged 1500 m 3:50.07 (’15) – unchanged 800 m 1:53.28 (’83) – unchanged 400 m 47.60 (’85) - unchanged 200 m 21.34 (’88) - unchanged 100 m 10.61 (’88) – 10.54 (’21) – 0.7 s/km in 33 years (ignoring the likely wind-aided 10.49 from ’88)
times have improved significantly across abilities starting around 2017 when the shoes were widely released to the public. Several lab studies and observational studies of race times have demonstrated huge improvements in people who wear the shoes versus those who stick to traditional flats.
Please post these findings so we can discuss data like rational humans instead of flinging our notions and feelings at each other like monkeys
The data shows times got fastet on the road in 2016 and on the track starting 2020. Those are the years of road and track super shoe introduction.
99% of data is cited only to be lied about. Not that you actually cited any, just went straight to the lying.
Bla,bla,bla
Below is a thread with some data. There are many threads with top 100 ncaa and world lists that show the same trend. People keep trying to say that this is normal or it isnt the shoes. But the race times got faster at every level and that change exactly corresponds in time with availability of these new shoe designs.
Thank you! I wasn't being sarcastic - I legitimately wanted to see proof, and the paper that this article was written about seems robust. Note that it was a preprint at the time the article was written, but it has since been published in the Journal of Applied Physiology
Our results demonstrate that marathon performances are substantially faster when world-class athletes, and particularly females, wear marathon racing shoes with technological advancements.
The writers note that the benefit of wearing supershoes becomes more and more muted as race pace gets faster, so I think we'll have to look elsewhere for answers as to why the men's WRs (especially on the track) are falling more rapidly than ever - if they are indeed falling more rapidly? - but it does seem clear that the shoes help in general. I hope someone has done a study with a larger N that incorporates nonelites since it seems that the trend should be very pronounced for casual runners
times have improved significantly across abilities starting around 2017 when the shoes were widely released to the public. Several lab studies and observational studies of race times have demonstrated huge improvements in people who wear the shoes versus those who stick to traditional flats.
Please post these findings so we can discuss data like rational humans instead of flinging our notions and feelings at each other like monkeys
We collected marathon performance data from a systematic sample of elite and sub-elite athletes over the period 2015 to 2019, then searched the internet for publicly-available photographs of these performances, identifying wh...
