Peter Snell would have been a low mileage 800m specialist, any era later than his era. I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man. I can't see Peter Snell as an elite 1500m man. If a young Peter Snell raced 1976 1500m final, I would place Snell 3rd.
You stated you disagree then you agreed with me. I stated high 1:42.xx to low 1:43.xx then you responded: nearly 2 seconds faster than 1:44.xx. Goofy, you stated the same thing!
We can do what if with guys like Paavo Nurmi. Peter Snell was already at 100 miles per week. Going from cinder tracks to today's tracks doesn't knock 10 seconds off your 1500m and 1 mile time. I used to train and race on cinder. I have trained and raced on synthetic tracks. Track athletes wore nylon shoes in 1960 & 1964. Peter Snell wasn't in the leather shoe era.
You didn't write 1:42-high. Here is your comment:
"I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man".
It may have been a typo but it reads 1:43-high to me.
Snell was in the leather shoe era - as I was. He also set his mile and half mile records on grass in '62.
What you also don't take account of in talking about a 10 second improvement in 1500/mile times is the difference doping would make between 1962 - when it was non-existent in md running - and 2023, when it is a virtual norm at the top.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Lydiard is like Bach. The guy discovered all the key elements of the field and articulated them for everyone else to follow. People change the drapes, or paint, but Lydiard built the house.
You stated you disagree then you agreed with me. I stated high 1:42.xx to low 1:43.xx then you responded: nearly 2 seconds faster than 1:44.xx. Goofy, you stated the same thing!
We can do what if with guys like Paavo Nurmi. Peter Snell was already at 100 miles per week. Going from cinder tracks to today's tracks doesn't knock 10 seconds off your 1500m and 1 mile time. I used to train and race on cinder. I have trained and raced on synthetic tracks. Track athletes wore nylon shoes in 1960 & 1964. Peter Snell wasn't in the leather shoe era.
Really -- it evolved from linear periodicity to non-linear. Lydiard training develops one thing at a time in each phase, from "aerobic" to "bounding" to "anaerobic" to "coordination", in order to be race-ready for the important goal. Since then, athletes build all things together in a more coordinated progression, from "general" to "special" to specific", geared towards a specific event.
Peter Snell would have been a low mileage 800m specialist, any era later than his era. I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man. I can't see Peter Snell as an elite 1500m man. If a young Peter Snell raced 1976 1500m final, I would place Snell 3rd.
If Snell trained and competed in the modern era - with ALL (cough) it's advantages - he would outkick Jakob every time over the 1500/mile. Just like a couple of Scotsmen have - but even more convincingly.
If Snell trained and competed in the modern era - with ALL (cough) it's advantages - he would outkick Jakob every time over the 1500/mile. Just like a couple of Scotsmen have - but even more convincingly.
No Scot has, Dumbstrong.
From Wikipedia:
"Although born in England, Wightman moved to Linlithgow as a child and represents Scotland internationally."(quote)
If Snell trained and competed in the modern era - with ALL (cough) it's advantages - he would outkick Jakob every time over the 1500/mile. Just like a couple of Scotsmen have - but even more convincingly.
No Scot has, Dumbstrong.
Also from Wikipedia.
"Josh Kerr (born 8 October 1997)[3][4] is a Scottish middle-distance runner who competes primarily in the 1500 metres."(quote)
You stated you disagree then you agreed with me. I stated high 1:42.xx to low 1:43.xx then you responded: nearly 2 seconds faster than 1:44.xx. Goofy, you stated the same thing!
We can do what if with guys like Paavo Nurmi. Peter Snell was already at 100 miles per week. Going from cinder tracks to today's tracks doesn't knock 10 seconds off your 1500m and 1 mile time. I used to train and race on cinder. I have trained and raced on synthetic tracks. Track athletes wore nylon shoes in 1960 & 1964. Peter Snell wasn't in the leather shoe era.
You didn't write 1:42-high. Here is your comment:
"I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man".
It may have been a typo but it reads 1:43-high to me.
Snell was in the leather shoe era - as I was. He also set his mile and half mile records on grass in '62.
What you also don't take account of in talking about a 10 second improvement in 1500/mile times is the difference doping would make between 1962 - when it was non-existent in md running - and 2023, when it is a virtual norm at the top.
You were in the leather shoe era, Armstronglivs? So are you like 80?
There’s a consistent formatting glitch when you type a couple times with Xs and slashes like 600 guy did; it’s happened to me before and it’s annoying.
I do think that Snell is most likely a 1:42-high guy in modernity. I think it’s silly to say he wouldn’t be an elite 1500 runner; I don’t think he’d be beating Jakob in Diamond Leagues, but with Josh Kerr running 3:29.01, Azeddine Habz running 3:29.26 and Elliot Giles running 3:30.92, I have to believe Snell would be somewhere in that range if he were competing today. Marcin Lewandowski is a decent recent comparison, a strong, high mileage guy who spent most of his career as an 800 guy and then ran 3:30.42 and medaled in the 1500 at Worlds—but I think Snell would be better, particularly in the 800.
Not sure that I disagree with Snell placing 3rd if he were transported to the 1976 Olympic 1500, but there’s a chance he’d take the dub in peak form, and there’s no shame in losing to Walker and van Damme in that race.
Really -- it evolved from linear periodicity to non-linear. Lydiard training develops one thing at a time in each phase, from "aerobic" to "bounding" to "anaerobic" to "coordination", in order to be race-ready for the important goal. Since then, athletes build all things together in a more coordinated progression, from "general" to "special" to specific", geared towards a specific event.
In addition to that, todays training is about the whole body, including the mental aspects. There are more runners now running fast times because of the whole range of techniques being used and new innovations.
Jakob is so good from consistent, gradual training for years with almost no injuries, and running such that 55-56 sec per quarter is considered the ‘standard’ pace for him. His body has adapted to it. That’s really the whole point in training is it not?
Snell couldn't even beat a high schooler named Jim Ryun.
He lost to him once, at the end of his career in a poorly prepared final tour - where he lost to a bunch of others he also used to beat, including coming last in a mile in Ireland.
I remember Ryun losing by 25 metres to a runner called Keino at Mexico in '68. Is that how you are going to judge his career?
Yes. Keino is a legend and was not a high schooler when he beat Ryun at altitude or do you forget '68?
Peter Snell would have been a low mileage 800m specialist, any era later than his era. I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man. I can't see Peter Snell as an elite 1500m man. If a young Peter Snell raced 1976 1500m final, I would place Snell 3rd.
There's something wrong with you. He ran 1:44.3 on grass in old style shoes, when he only had a handful of paced races a year, was working full time, was doubling as a miler, and any trip to the Europe or the USA to race was still pretty demanding travel wise from NZ.
Yet you think if he was a fulltime professional and specialised in the 800m, he would only be high 1:43 in super shoes and kangaroo mondo tracks???
Lydiard training, as it was, was relevant in the context of the '60s and '70s.
But for sure, since the '70s, training has advanced with respect to periodicity, volume of intensity, and more emphasis on event specialization.
I think part of what made Lydiard a great coach was his ability to motivate his athletes, and his ability to know when and how to adapt an athlete's training when it wasn't working, or to meet some new goal.
Periodicity is the backbone of Lydiards training.
This is something I think gets overlooked when regarding Lydiard. The focus is always on the huge mileage and building the aerobic engine. But I just watched a feature on Peter Snell and in an interview he talks about building a program backwards from the competition date. 9 weeks out he starts doing track work and 6 weeks out from that he begins hill work, the rest he says is the 100 miles a week which is what the interviewer focuses on. I’m sure this was a very simplified answer from Snell but even then it’s clear that you use the famous Lydiard mileage and things like the 22 mile Waiatarua to build your base for serious sharpening approaching competition.
When Arthur was asked which phase was most important, he said, "all of them are important." But the aerobic phase is the foundation to which all else is built on.
And periodization is something he developed. The phase in periodization was the aerobic phase.
With the advent of doping and very savvy dopers as well as super shoes, faster rubber tracks, I bet you could compare Snell and John Walker to anyone today.
Snell became quite the physiologist after his competitive career. When asked what he would change about Lydiard's training now that he is an exercise physiologist, he said, "very little."
Arthur said the early rubber track were worth one second per lap. Now more. Snell's 1:44.1 on grass is 1:42.1 then. Still world-class. Now, how about the fastest possible tracks of today? A little faster? HOw about super spikes? 1:40.00? Dare I say?
If you look at the training the top athletes do, they are all very similar....the same physiological principles apply to humans today as 70 years ago. We haven't evolved from them (probably socially devolved), but physiologically....same rules apply. Keep in mind, training principles today are based on Arthur Lydiard training principles.
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