Marius bakken - ”i det lange löp” this week

This was the idea tht Gershler(sic?) used with the German Harbig in the 1930s - and he ran 46.0 and 1:46.6. And yes i understand that his intensity was way above LT

On Bakken's website he cites a handful of training programs of runners who he feels embody the Norwegian approach to training, and those runners typically do intervals with fairly short rest. I think for a 6 minute threshold interval the rest was usually just a minute, sometimes up to 90 seconds. Whether that was jogging, walking, or standing he said didn't really make too much of a difference. Everyone may be different in that respect since I hate how I feel after a standing rest and so always jog, but Bakken seems to suggest walking or standing is preferable.

I saw a few 90 second to 2:00 rests for threshold intervals in the workouts he referenced and those were for "longer" intervals like 3-5km. Otherwise 0:45 to 1:00 rest seem to be the most common, which sounds doable so long as your effort level really is appropriate for the session. Since Bakken assumes you're taking lactate readings, even if you're having an "off" day you'll still have short rest because you'd then slow down your intervals based on your reading.

Between double T sessions he's mentioned in an interview or paper somewhere that 3-4 hours is a doable minimum though he usually spaced his thresholds ~5-6 hours apart himself.

Great stuff. Would this type of training still work for 10K and half marathon as well? Seems like the marathon would be out of the question due to the shorter long run.

Grete Waitz used to do a session of 20 x 300m (10-15 sec recovery) fifty years ago. Presumably a threshold type session. So that is another Norwegian influence.

With the perhaps key exceptions of no lactate meter and no hill sprints in a schedule with 112 to 130 miles per week (usually under 120), I did virtually the identical program as Bakken recommends for several years during the pandemic. My rests were typically 1 minute on the 5x6 minute, the 10x3 minute, the 3x10 minute, and the shorter intervals as well. I would jog about 20 minutes to warm up. Adding strides beforehand helped when I did them. I had difficulty telling what my pace was because there was no set of markers corresponding to my intervals. I did these mostly to and from work with a very light backpack with lunch and some papers. Usually I would run 8-10 miles each way. The positive is that I was able to maintain mileage without injuries. The negative was that I was not getting faster. I really needed more training stimulus. Track work would always expose that it was not working. Within a month of access to a track where I'd do traditional intervals, I would get a lot faster. Unfortunately, I didn't have access to a track more than that.

It is possible that the lactate readings would have allowed me to adjust better to the proper paces. The other thing is that the hill sprints might have made up for the lack of high speed in my training. The area lacks hills but I should use what there is, bridge hills and stacked parking lots. If I got a lactate meter, what readings does he recommend? The Ingebrigtsens target different numbers, but I believe outside of track work with high lactate numbers like 8, the target is to keep it under 4 in most workouts. Did Bakken say what #'s to target?

From the website, this article is dated 2000 and the total intervals are more like 42 minutes, instead of 30 minutes per session, but the lactate #'s are similar.

mariusbakken.com

A Practical Guide

From theory to workouts Written by Marius Bakken March 2000 “Using our technical advantages to copy their training principles” In the fall of 1998 I started using the Lactate Pro lactic…

Open link

The type of intervals that Bakken describes and that the Norwegians have quickly become famous for doing as doubles were something Jack Daniels used heavily when he was coaching D3 runners to oodles of national titles, years back. He referred to them as “cruise intervals” and he spoke at length on their value at a running camp I attended as a high schooler back in the early 2000s. “Nothing new under the Sun,” as it were. I’ll see if I can dig up the power point slides I printed out from his talks, I recently came across them when sorting old papers and glory day memorabilia. I believe he said the intervals should be no shorter than 2:00 and no longer than 8:00, with somewhere in between being more or less ideal. Rest could be as short as :30 for the shorter intervals, but no more than 2:00 for the longest. Basically should be close to 4:1 work to rest.

"On LT training sessions he would run right around 1.8/2.0 lactic acid that means
3.0 on the lactic acid meter – using theconversion table in illustration 2."

Has anyone ever seen this 'conversion table' Bakken references in his guide?

Kipchoge does not train with lactate or double threshold, so please do not conflate the two systems of training.

In theory I suppose. I made a post earlier in the summer about how I'm trying just that approach for the half and full marathons this Fall. I'm still a few months from my goal marathon and have had some non-running injury related setbacks but I hope to update that thread relatively soon on my anecdotal progress using a self modified Bakken method for the marathon. Essentially I forgo the 2nd double threshold of the week in the specific/competition phase in favor of the long run workout (e.g. 20 miles at MP +20s or 5x5k at MP -5s with 1km float rest). But I did do 2x double threshold with 16-18 mile long runs for a while in the buildup phase to this marathon cycle and my conclusion is that long runs over 15-16 miles fatigue the body too much if you're following the model otherwise.

Bakken says 2-2.5mmol/L for the AM sessions and 3-3.5mmol/L for the PM sessions. Since I don't have a lactate meter either I just tried to do marathon effort in the AM and half marathon down to 10k effort in the PM depending on the session structure.

How one should train for the /marathon was the topic of the second part of the interview (from 1:07 )

He stated that the best training is dependent upon if we are talking about the very best in the world or just normal people.

He started by concluding that the anaerobic threshhold is most important. So you should maximumet the threshhold before you enter the marathon specific period.

there has been studies on 2:50 runners that conclude that the anaerobic threshhold correlate with the finishing time with a margin of error of 1-2 minutes. There hasnt been any studies of the best in the world, but Marius believes that the same correlation holds true also for them.

-> so the 1500-5k training which gives the Highest anaerobic threshhold will be optimal at least up to the half marathon, but probably also marathon (he mentioned that the aerobic threshhold becomes important also for marathon).

-> for the very best, you dont need much stimuli for your muscles to adopt to the muscle strain that comes from running a marathon.

So before you enter the marathon specific training -> the training week should look a lot like the normal norwegian week.
-> you should keep the double threshhold, but run easy for 1 hour before the 6x6min training on thursdays. You shouldnt take any waterbreak or paus. Go straight for the 1 hour into the intervals.

-> almost all training should be interval based. Every other week you could to some continues running.

-> x-factor saturday (hills). A lot like the normal week before you enter the marathon specific training.

-> sunday: for the best runners in the world, you dont need to run for more than 20 km. (When you enter the marathon specific training you should run longer, progressive and faster towards the end). So you should start to adjust 2-3 weeks before you enter the marathon specific period.

Is it just me, or does it sound like Bakken is confusing the aerobic and anaerobic thresholds? I know it's been shown that the elites have an anaerobic threshold less than 4, but the aerobic threshold is approximately 2.0 mmol and the anaerobic threshold is around 3.0-3.5 mmol.

So basically, train as much as you can with intervals in zone 2 (3 zone model), with the rest of the mileage zone 1 and a single workout per week in zone 3.. people complicate this way too much.

(Zone 2 is roughly 82 - 87% Max HR or slightly slower than marathon pace to Marathon pace, or a little faster every time the interval gets smaller)

This isn't to diminish the success of the system, I think it is truly one of the best, but people are trying to complicate it a little too much and I'm doing so, work too hard and get injured (I see posts about this all the time). You should not get injured if you're doing this right.

First: With 1 hour easy then 6x6min intervals (let's assume you take 1 minute between each interval), that's over 1:40 of running. Throw in a cooldown, you're close to 2 hours. How does he not consider this to just be a long run with intervals at the end?

Second, that directly contradicts the long run comment. But with the "marathon specific period" what exactly does that entail? How is it different?

Thanks for sharing the insights, this is some really nice information.

And then you come back in the evening and do the shorter workout? That would be a tough day. I feel like something is being mistranslated..

I would not be shocked for a pro who is only racing for like 2:10 and putting in like 12 hours of running that a long run isn’t a big priority outside of the race prep phase. Especially with super shoes reducing leg wear.

Any training plan that has no actual rest day in the week I immediately believe is only suited for special talents that can handle crazy training loads. Most bodies needs to regenerate, and 2x10/12k easy days are far from regenerative.

I didn't feel that the double threshold days were that hard because the paces were not as fast as a typical track workout, like something Jerry would have his athletes do.

They are if you are running 150k+/week and getting all the sleep you need. 2 45 min runs at a real easy pace is a recovery run. The long run is also short enough that Sunday/Monday gives you a nice recovery period.

warm up 5 k/ 2O -25 min cool down 2 k/ 10 min always