If most people never get to win, why are we going to so much effort to glorify just one woman? Seems unfair, if so many will never get to experience it.
I know you are purposefully being dense, but even in the scenario described by the first poster the races were separated by sex. In meaningless early season races it probably doesn't matter if you combine them and only one person gets to cross the line. It could help cut back the time it takes to hold a meet instead of running a JV boys/girls, Varsity boys/girls, MS boys/girls race and having to take over 3 hours, you could hold a 5k and a 3k or whatever and have the meet last 1/3rd the time. That way you can get it in on a weeknight before it gets dark without kids missing as much class time.
Obviously in later races it's easier to see where your team stands in a conference/state type meet. Also, if a team decided to have some of the men pace the women it can create unfair advantages.
If you're going to call someone dense, you might not want to miss the point of their question.
My issue was with the justification, which went as follows: 'because most kids don't get to win, no female should ever get to win.'
That's essentially what will happen if the races aren't split by sex. And in this scenario, 'winning' means crossing the line first. In terms of an experience, there's a big difference between being the first female, and actually being the first person across the line in a race.
If you want to discourage females from taking up the sport, then by all means, deny them the possibility of ever crossing the line first.
If you want to discourage females from taking up the sport, then by all means, deny them the possibility of ever crossing the line first.
This is why you are purposefully being dense. There is a difference between a couple early races being mixed and completely eliminating the separation. Nobody is ever pretending they are completely combining the two, so there definitely will be opportunities for them to cross the line first.
You absolutely know that's the case but for some reason one middle school race was combined and you've theoretically eliminated all separate races forever when you know that isn't ever actually happening.
My daughter just entered sixth grade and is excited to get the cross country season started. As an fellow ms-hs runner so am I. I just found out that our town did away with gendered races in an attempt to be more inclusive they have done away with gendered races. There is just two a Varsity and JV split down the middle regardless of gender. The races are still scored by gender, plus an “open” category to please certain virtue signalers. The fast girls will almost certainly never get a chance to win a race. Mine is just starting out but it’s a bummer that she might not have that opportunity. Is this common anywhere else? Is this, dare I say, a title nine violation?
Even back in the 1970s they ran girls/women with boys/men. Sometimes there was only one division. I do not recall them ever awarding a trophy to a boy for beating all the girls but IF they are doing that in your area I would protest. That is not okay or right for anyone!
If you want to discourage females from taking up the sport, then by all means, deny them the possibility of ever crossing the line first.
This is why you are purposefully being dense. There is a difference between a couple early races being mixed and completely eliminating the separation. Nobody is ever pretending they are completely combining the two, so there definitely will be opportunities for them to cross the line first.
You absolutely know that's the case but for some reason one middle school race was combined and you've theoretically eliminated all separate races forever when you know that isn't ever actually happening.
Again, I was responding to a poster who wrote this:
"Most kids regardless of gender don’t get a chance to ‘win.’ That’s the same for pretty much every road race in America. You can maybe hold a special little snowflake run around your yard where she can win every time!"
This appears to be belittling the idea of ever separating sex categories. This is what I was taking issue with.
You seem to be continually mistaking the target of my argument (wilfully or not).
This is a troll guys and you fell for it. Sixth grade girls are bigger, faster and stronger than almost all the boys in their grade. An 11 YO in Australian girl ran 4:28 1500m and 9:38 3K earlier this year.
The USATF National Jr. Olympic TF champs record for boys aged 11/12 is 4:30 and 9:38.
The classic case of a parent who never won anything in high school so they want to find any way for their kid to win and somehow convince themselves that they could have won races if they had a better coach in high school.
So I am going to disagree with everyone I guess. While I agree its not the end of the world and is indeed common to combine JV and K-5, (seemingly we are only OK with this in XC, not track), combining genders in MS/HS is pure laziness. That's all it is, laziness. It just takes more time (like 20 min) to run the girls together. That's how 99% of sports are and the olympics and college. They run hard, they get to break the tape and know where they are... their race. With combined it's easy to lose track if you are in 1st or 2nd etc... Just lazy. Same as race directors who give out medals to the podium without the 25 cent ribbon attached. Lazy. Run the JV together if you have to, but separate the "varsity". We do it for wrestling, volleyball, basketball, Track and Field, and on and on. Get your head out of your behind and line up one more race. It's just not that hard.
Here in the great state of Michigan, I just don't see this mixing of genders for everything.
And BTW, maybe worthy of its own thread- when did it become a scarlet letter worthy of the public's greatest scorn for people who "never won anything" to want the best experience for their kid? Im sick of that whole dialogue. Yes, I love to see my kids excel well beyond what I did, and love seeing them get the whole great experience and be happy. I was above average athlete and had zero $ growing up. Imagine...the travesty of being satisfied with your own kids having it better. Wow, what a terrible and unnatural personality characteristic for a parent. There must be a great feeling of freedom to not give a sheis about your kids.
Otherwise I have no strong feelings on the matter.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
spelling
My daughter just entered sixth grade and is excited to get the cross country season started. As an fellow ms-hs runner so am I. I just found out that our town did away with gendered races in an attempt to be more inclusive they have done away with gendered races. There is just two a Varsity and JV split down the middle regardless of gender. The races are still scored by gender, plus an “open” category to please certain virtue signalers. The fast girls will almost certainly never get a chance to win a race. Mine is just starting out but it’s a bummer that she might not have that opportunity. Is this common anywhere else? Is this, dare I say, a title nine violation?
Back in the day, middle/elementary schools would run boys and girls together all the time. So what.
what she said^
also, if they're still scoring by gender then she can still win her gender category if she is first girl. seems like someone (YOU) is making this a much bigger deal than it really is.
I L-O-V-E-D to win high school races (the girls division - I am a woman) though I didn't run in middle school, so I can't really compare. It build my confidence. It's good to lead and be way out there by yourself and get your picture in the local paper (or twitter acct). I wouldn't want to take the thrill of winning away from any young female athlete, after all the boys have the privilege to win. they get to have the thrill of winning, why not the girls? There's no way I wouldn't won the boys varsity, our team was too good! They won the state meet the year after I graduated! I didn't even train with the boys varsity, I only trained with the boy's JV group.
It would be humiliating for boys to be beaten by girls in middle school or high school. keep them separate.
The races should be separated by XX and XY. You could even have them do a 23andme spit test and get the results so it's just purely biological (except for people who have rare chromosome disorders).
To reiterate, it's just sad that the thrill of winning is taken away from young female athletes. I can't believe I'm saying: things were actually better for young female athletes back in the day.
I am not disagreeing here, but are you proposing that every kid have a 23andme test done? Do you work for them? Own stock? I looked up the cost, $100.
The best reason to do this is time savings. If you run an all boys race that will take how long to finish? If you when run the all girls race, how long will that take? My guess is running them together takes a lot less time.
Also, I would argue that in middle school the focus should not be on winning any way but on improving and hopefully getting kids to enjoy running and find joy in it.
I am not disagreeing here, but are you proposing that every kid have a 23andme test done? Do you work for them? Own stock? I looked up the cost, $100.
No. You could use the test from Ancestry.com as well.
Maybe there's a cheaper test (or alternative spit test) from 23andme and/or Ancestry.com since (for gender) they only need to analyze one pair of chromosomes, the 23rd pair.
I don't think you can just go by appearance b/c people could have rare chromosome disorders, but I'm not a geneticist. I'm sure other people know way more than me about this topic!
Storm in a teacup. My school kept things co ed until grade 6. That was in the 90s - this isn't a new thing. There would still be gender categories but just everyone raced simultaneously. One girl was a huge talent though and won city champs overall grade 4, 5, and 6. Big advantages for boys don't really come in until kids start hitting puberty.
All that to say, I wouldn't read too much into it.
My daughter just entered sixth grade and is excited to get the cross country season started. As an fellow ms-hs runner so am I. I just found out that our town did away with gendered races in an attempt to be more inclusive they have done away with gendered races. There is just two a Varsity and JV split down the middle regardless of gender. The races are still scored by gender, plus an “open” category to please certain virtue signalers. The fast girls will almost certainly never get a chance to win a race. Mine is just starting out but it’s a bummer that she might not have that opportunity. Is this common anywhere else? Is this, dare I say, a title nine violation?
Middle school girls regularly destroy prepubescent middle school boys in XC, it's a great opportunity for them to flex on the little twerps, make them cry and ruin their self esteem for decades to come. I'd call that a win!
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.