Is Canova Right About EPO?

Sadly you are right.

This messageboard wet it's collective pants because a "world famous coach" of Kenyans visited it and with stars in their eyes just believed anything he had to say. But behind it all is this - these athlete were his revenue stream and of course he has a motive to say all these guys are just ultra-talented products of their environment.

And at the time he could do just that - because the era in which he was most vocal was when many drugs were still basically undetectable (read: EPO) and nobody really understood how hard it was logistically to test in Kenya and that they actually had access to to the same stuff everyone else did. This idealistic fantasy of Kenyans just running in packs at 8000ft altitude, eating ugali and doing it the right way was perfect emotive "papier mache" to gloss over what really was happening (ramshackle clinics handing out all sorts of sh-t to "world class" athletes).

Did you actually even read the post? I said that the science is widely accepted as fact now that oxygen transport is not the limiting factor and that there is a point of no returns. That is a fact. What it hasn't actually done is tested elite athletes born at altitude on EPO for rather obvious reasons. The consensus is that there will be at least limited returns theoretically. Or are you too dense to understand that renatos science can be good and still wrong or right in application?

Ahaha! That's one of his most dumb claims he has ever stated.

The only one without reality in this claim of yours is you Renato.EPO was created to help kidny sick people. Your claim without reality would in reality give that world top Kenya runners could not be saved by EPO if they needed.

There is no "science" if he hasn't tested the effect of EPO on his athletes. It is merely his speculation. But we do know that Kenyan athletes use it, along with other drugs. Unlike Renato they aren't speculating - they have experience of doping. I will go with their verdict, based on their continued use of drugs, that it is effective.

Kerr and jacob and other elite British runners are using Epo, Sebastian Coe achieved his goal by letting the door open and without any control for those who have chosen!
I’d love to see a world with real non government organisations, with very independent and not compromised work and that not discriminate or elude transparency and people believes, Coe he is not clean !!!!

How many countries there are in Africa?

One country over 54 countries is undetectable by the AIU.

Which mean that your assertion has 0.2% chance to be true.

Now look at a country like Bahrain and why they are successful using East Africans?
Where are your European or American there? why their skill is not selling?

Now I will do some maths and equations to understand more.

(GPD of a country + Nutrition + Material Support) / (EPO use) = 3

Which mean
(GPD of a country + Nutrition + Material Support)

efficiency is the thrice of efficiency of (EPO use).

...Wilson Kipsang was advised by Renato and he was suspended, not for EPO but for tampering and for missing four tests in a 12-month period...

This is in the interview:

"I have many athletes between the best in the World, with some world record holders, AND THEY ARE COMPLETELY CLEAN. I can put my hands on fire they are clean. NOT ONE OF THEM ASKED ME DURING THEIR CAREER FOR ANY SUPPORT, LEGAL TOO. It was not part of their mentality to look for any type of aid."

The interview was before London Olympics, in 2012, 11 years ago. Wilson Kipsang, at that time, was a perfect example of talented, serious and motivated athlete, very similar the behavior of Eliude Kipchoge. Wilson was the example for all the marathon runners training in Iten, also because part of the life of Iten. He built his house in Iten, and also a small church frequented by big number of local people.

But, after bettering the WR, he did a big mistake : invested almost all his money for building a hotel that never produced good income, and decided to start a political career, using the carisma deriving from his performances for becoming chairman of PAK, practically like a syndacate (Professional Athletes of Kenya), driving the Association against the Federation, and trying to have the support of the Government against AK.

I left Wilson when I accepted the role of head coach for middle and long distances in China, at the end of 2013. In 2015, WCh were in Beijing, and I met Wilson and Dennis Kimetto in the Kenyan Team. This surprised me, because there were no reasons because both of them could be in the Team. Normally top marathon runners are not interested to compete in WCh (everybody instead is interested to run Olympics), and I didn't see any reason to have in the Team the number one in the World (Wilson) and the WR holder (Kimetto), because in any case it was not possible to have two winners, and becoming World Champion couldn't add anything to the evaluation of the two athletes.

Wilson told me they were well prepared, but Kenyans prepare every marathon in the same way, going for long run when is fresh, at 6am, while in Beijing temperature and humidity were very high. So, both Wilson and Kimetto dropped out after 27 km.

After that period, the career of Wilson was no longer the same : the continuous victories of Eliud Kipchoge didn't allow him to remain the number one, and the age started to be a factor (in spite of his official age in the passport, where it's written born in 1982, he really had born in 1978).

So, I confirm 100% what I said in the interview of 11 years ago. I don't deny that today the situation is no longer the same, and that a doping culture continued to grow in Kenya till 2 years ago. After that period, finally we have in Kenya a lab for testing the athletes, the Government invested a lot of money for testing local runners of top level, and AK started many clinics for teaching which substance are illegal, and the risks for the health and for the career if caught positive.

About Wilson, his ban doesn't mean he used some doping, but that the organization of his life became very confuse, one of the problem was he started to drink too much.

I'd like if people could know PERSONALLY something about the life in Kenya and the evolution in the last 10 years, before speaking. Staying behind a keyboard is easy to criticize basing on what it's possible to read, but, before generalizing, it's important to know life and ambience for trying to understand the reasons behind every behavior.

Don't forget I never spoke about generic doping, but specifically about EPO. In the list you produced, there were 27 athletes busted in 2022, but only 2 for EPO (that means 7.4 %).

From 6-7 years ago, the percentage of positives for EPO is going down every year : cannot mean this situation that athletes start to understand EPO doesn't give big advantage, and if they want to cheat is better to look at other substances ?

Dear Renato, thank you for still replying here on LRC.

Do you have any informations about the real age of Eliud Kipchoge? Was he really born in 1984? If not, what would you guess?

The greater I understand my own true nature, the more enlightening Renato becomes

Truly, this board is littered with cynics, but if one can read what Renato is saying without that cynicism, it is extremely uplifting and inspiring due to it's plausibility

When combined with supreme competency and that sort of belief in the boundless possibility of human potential it's only natural a coach is going to attract like minded and naturally hyper-competent athletes

Renato says altitude works, which is effectively the same thing.

Whether something "works" depends on the starting conditions, which are often unknown, or cherry-picked.

There are many studies showing short term gains of 3%-5% from an unknown starting condition, for all forms of blood doping, as well as legal altitude training, all which effectively increase EPO.

None of these studies have shown the subjects ran faster in the "long term" than what is possible without.

One reason to think EPO won't work after being highly trained at altitude, is because training at altitude already increases your EPO naturally, and already provides the maximum benefit.

To establish that synthetic EPO "works" on altitude athletes would require training them first at altitude, then adding EPO.

Aren't you brave? Attacking Renato anonymously on a public forum?

While many athletes are being busted, not that many distance runners are being busted for EPO or ABP -- not even Kenyans. They are mainly busted for exotic substances no one really knows how it impacts distance running performance, or for clerical errors. Biological estimates for "abnormal blood" are around 1 in 7 athletes.

Since you are so knowledgeable, given your journalistic experience, what are some of the best examples of non-Kenyans with sudden jumps of improvements who were then caught with EPO or ABP? Ramzi? Hellebuyck? Lombard? Hesch?

Why is it that non-Africans, for more than three decades, cannot replicate East African quality of performances with EPO.

It can also mean that now with the usage of biosimilar EPO and the proper protocol, it is now almost undetectable. Only people using the "old synthetic EPO" or not following the proper protocol are getting caught.

No. He’s a clown. He turned into a clown show as soon as he said EPO doesn’t do anything.