If you would like some personal testimony, why don't you go to the FORUM on the www.postech.com website. You can ask lots of people about their personal experiences learning to run most efficiently.
If you would like some personal testimony, why don't you go to the FORUM on the www.postech.com website. You can ask lots of people about their personal experiences learning to run most efficiently.
The africans don't "use Pose."
Bekele, Geb, EL Guerrouj, Kipketer, etc. They all run the way that is taught by the best running form/ biomechanics coaches in the world, not the Pose method. There form has been analzyed to death by certain coaches which I have talked to and the africans are not doing the things that are recommended in the Pose method.
The only thing they have in common is the footstrike is flat on the ground basically under the center of gravity. That's it. They do not pull with the hamstring or lift their leg up or fall forward.
They push off the ground and extend their hip to go faster. Pose doesn't recommend this. Pose cuts this motion off which causes a whole slew of problems.
I've talked with biomechanics experts and to coaches who have coached world record holders on the subject of running form. All agreed with me on the above mentioned fallacies of the Pose method and pointed out that none of the top sprinters or distance runners run the way the Pose guy recommends. Some even went as far as getting out video of Carl Lewis, Wilson Kipketer, El Guerrouj, Coe, Steve Ovett, and many others and broke the video down frame by frame to show exactly what they were doing. In concluding, it wasn't pose.
So don't say the africans use Pose, they don't. Sure the foot hits the same way, but that's it. Watch the Africans leg drive and push off face, it's not cut short like in Pose. They extend their hips all the way back.
Pose guy is just trying to reinvent the wheel in a crazy way.
Please go read some biomechanics or expert running form coaches literature or hell even Newton's laws before you make such false claims.
Barry P.,
If you would like some personal testimony, why don't you go to the FORUM on the
website. You can ask lots of people about their personal experiences learning to run most efficiently.
Isn't it possible that most of the improvement that comes from "pose" is just that it gets people running at higher cadence, into lighter lower shoes and just generally away from braking/heel striking? Which is absolutely better form than loping along on your heels in heavy shoes. If you stick with it and pay attention to oncoming injuries your lower legs and feet get stronger, you can run more miles and recover more quickly from hard training.
The Africans do NOT push hard off the ground. You can't push off the ground and get your leg under you as the runners in this pic have. It is a mechanical impossibility.
Certainly, the Africans do not get coached to POSE. If you grow up running barefoot, what is termed POSE becomes your natural running motion. The more the Africans run is cushy shoes, the worse their form gets (the more they push off) and the more they get injured.
postech.com? did you mean posetech.com
that's sort of like going to the southern baptist convention to get a objective opinion on religion
Agreed. Sorry Huffman, but you are coming across like an Amway salesman. I want to hear YOUR personal insights and experiences. Don't just direct me to a professionaly done website.
where? wrote:
postech.com? did you mean posetech.com
that's sort of like going to the southern baptist convention to get a objective opinion on religion
You can't push off the ground and get your leg under you as the runners in this pic have. It is a mechanical impossibility.
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Incorrect. In fact, if they don't push off the ground, then what is propelling them forward?
POSE is a scam! ....but I feel mid-foot striking can be beneficial........and most of us are already doing it!!
For most of us, our foot strike is different when running a race as opposed to a 10 mile distance run.
I am a mid-foot striker while racing and tend to strike a little further back on the outside of the heel the slower I go.
Sorry Barry P, but I have to tell you that you don't understand basic running biomechanics. The research is clear----when running, there is absolutely now muscle activity of the extensor muscles after the stance phase in running. This extensor paradox frustrates the proponents of traditional running technique. People don't push (even when running traditionally).
What happens when the Africans run is that they fall forward, support themselves very briefly, and fall forward again. Virtually every African runner I have worked with or watched race has a cadence that is significantly faster than your typical American. Haile runs easy runs with a cadence of about 190 strides per minute. That is another thing you can't do if you try to push on each stride.
I suggest all of you inform yourselves before making stupid claims. Go listen to some people who actually train fast people speak at track clinics.
The first step towards knowledge, it may be about sprinting but it applies in running form and mechanics. read, learn, forget pose:
http://teamtartan.org/pdf/Sprinting_A_Biomechanical_Approach.pdf
Sorry Barry P, but I have to tell you that you don't understand basic running biomechanics
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Well, I guess I should mail my diploma back to the university and ask for my money back.
I'm not going to go out on a limb here and say that you don't know what you are talking about, but I would like you to more clearly explain what goes on during running motion.
Please educate me.....and despite your asinine introductory statement, please explain this as if you were explaining it to a mechanical engineer who graduated at the top of his class (you know.....in case I meet one).
I'm serious. Fall forward, support, fall forward leaves too much to be interpereted by the reader.
Cult?
Well....I have to go soon so I'm not going to await your response....I'll have to make some assumptions.
Ok....lets assume a stable upright starting position. What you are saying that I do is "lean forward,".....alright. As i lean forward, my body wants to move forward. Now, if I continue with this motion I will fall. So, one leg must move forward and "catch" myself. Ok, I'm with you so far...correct? Now, while I was "falling," my ceneter of gravity lowered itself. My leg, being slightly bent, absorbed the impact by flexing slightly.
Now for the two dollar question. How do I get my now lowered center of gravity back to its original height so that it can "fall" again without EXTENDING my legs?
Is there something I am misunderstanding by the term "push off?" Are we merely talking about degrees of "pushing off?"
Please, educate me! I want to learn.
I think maybe the confusion is that these pose guys think that we are talking about a "push off" from the calf, when in reality the push off comes from "extending the hip."
Excellent post, Barry. That about sums it up. I've always been a bit skeptical about this theory, but I've never been as convinced as I am now that it is pseudoscience.
I have a really hard time believing that changing from one's natural stride the the pose stride will actually REDUCE injuries. Seems like the contrary is almost a certainty -- unless you start with very serious problems with your form.
I wonder if anyone will read this thread and consider giving Pose a try.
I think pseudoscience is a good word. I mean, I'm open to "out of the box" thinking....but I have yet to hear anything that sounds any different than a Dienetics sales pitch (ah...ah...did you like that one? 1st I use Amway and then I snuck Scientology in there).Seriously! I understand this whole concept of thinking of the feet like wheels and using a pulling action, but I have two points to make. 1)There is no way that you can physicaly run with out extending your legs for propulshion...so they must be talking about varying degrees of pushoff instead of some versus none and 2) this isn't anything new.
webby wrote:
Excellent post, Barry. That about sums it up. I've always been a bit skeptical about this theory, but I've never been as convinced as I am now that it is pseudoscience.
I have a really hard time believing that changing from one's natural stride the the pose stride will actually REDUCE injuries. Seems like the contrary is almost a certainty -- unless you start with very serious problems with your form.
I wonder if anyone will read this thread and consider giving Pose a try.
Funny how much further elites fall forward than slower runners fall forward!
My observation from running with 100s of runners is that the faster runners all push off. And the faster they are the more extension they get from their hips and the harder they push off. Yes, they do it with hip extension and a bit of calf, but they push off.
You pose proponents need to go to a track and do a workout with a sub-30 10k runner. Run right behind them and then tell me they don't push off.
Bloody hogwash they don't push off.
On the other hand, I think pose may actually have some value for the fitness jogger. Just not for the competitive runner.
I think the thing that could cause a reduction in injuries is the fact that in Pose they advocate a forefoot or flat foot strike. However in correct running in the mainstream this is advocated too. So it's nothing new.
The problem is that while Pose may reduce injuries b/c of that fact, the athlete is losing his stride length and is getting too quick. The pose method seems to focus too much on frequency and in doing so they lose the stride lenggth or power. Speed= Stride length X stride frequency. So they are dramaticly increasing one, but neglecting the other. It's far more efficient to get a better balance from "correct running." Also I think one fact that the Pose people miss is that the leg cycles through faster than it would with their concsious lifting of the leg. I've said it before and I'll say it again for emphasis, this happens because in correct running you get that great stretch reflex/ rubber band effect when you extend the hip fully. In watching videos of that Pose guy run, it also looks like he's not getting as much vertical component as he should be.
Not trying to bash anyone, just throwing out the opinion.
Pseudoscience is a good word for Pose. If you'd like Mr. Huffman I can put you in contact with an expert on running mechanics whose actually coached successful people to help straighten you and your Pose running ways out. Just trying to help, because I don't see you maximizing your running speed, racing with the Pose running way.
I'll be sure to let you know when I need some training advice. Thanks!