If Donovan Brazier can rediscover his form I think he could have a real shot at it if he wanted to go after it. Wouldn't be easy though.
American 1000M record turns 49yo today.
Pro News/Info/Results
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Guarantee you TAS is chatting with Ari right now.
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John Wesley Harding wrote:
Impala31 wrote:
Hoppel : 1:43.2 -> 2.15.9
Murphy : 1:43:1 (3:36) -> 2:15.7
It’s worth taking a closer look at last year’s Monaco race where they ran these times. Almost nobody in the field wanted to run boldly, which I think often happens in 1k races. I mean, regardless of whether you think of it as a longer 800m or a more intense 1500m, it’s pretty daunting to someone without much experience racing the distance (which is everyone).
There were 3 different pacing strategies employed in the Monaco 1k:
-Marco Arop split 51.4/1:45.4 for 400/800 - through 700 he was on 2:10.7 pace! Of course the bear jumped him in the last 200 which he ran in ~29.0, but he still set a NR of 2:14.35 and finished more than 10m clear of 3rd place. A few tenths slower in the first 600 and he has a great chance of breaking 2:14.
-Jake Wightman ran a far more measured race to ensure he didn’t collapse in the last 200: 52.5 through 400 and 1:47.2 (54.7) through 800 before kicking with a ~26.6 last 200. A smart race, but the fact that his final three 200 splits went 27.1 - 27.6 - 26.6 indicates that he left some time on the table. In a perfect 1k time trial you’d expect someone to be barely hanging on in the last 200.
-Everyone else ran a gutless race for 3rd place. Nobody except Wightman was within 3.5 seconds (!) of Arop at 800m. Clayton Murphy placed 3rd in 2:15.73 and according to the race analysis his final 100m was 12.5/12.6 seconds, which moved him up from 8th to 3rd. His first 100m was a 14.1 (compared with 12.6/12.8 for Arop and Wightman) and that didn’t even come close to winning him the race to the back of the field. His 200m splits from start to finish were 27.3 - 27.1 - 27.6 - 27.6 - 26.1 with that huge last 100. From 400 to 800 he ran Ingebrigtsen’s 1500 pace. That’s not an honest gauge of his 1k potential. I’d like to know what happens when he and Hoppel go through 600 in 1:19.0, not 1:22.0.
While their times would improve going out a bit harder. I doubt they would have improved by a full 2 seconds in a one k (at least on that day). 2 secs is a lot to make up in an 800/1k.
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Impala31 wrote:
No way a 400/800 runner gets it. 2:13 is no joke.
You need a 1:42/43 + 3:28/29 guy to beat that.
Not really. Wohlhuter himself was a 1:44.1y/3:53 guy. 1k was probably his best distance, though.
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DBraz wrote:
If Donovan Brazier can rediscover his form I think he could have a real shot at it if he wanted to go after it. Wouldn't be easy though.
Yeah, Brazier is actually faster than Wohlhuter over both 800 and 1500. Whether we see him healthy again is a whole 'nother question.
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MatthewXCountry wrote:
John Wesley Harding wrote:
It’s worth taking a closer look at last year’s Monaco race where they ran these times. Almost nobody in the field wanted to run boldly, which I think often happens in 1k races. I mean, regardless of whether you think of it as a longer 800m or a more intense 1500m, it’s pretty daunting to someone without much experience racing the distance (which is everyone).
There were 3 different pacing strategies employed in the Monaco 1k:
-Marco Arop split 51.4/1:45.4 for 400/800 - through 700 he was on 2:10.7 pace! Of course the bear jumped him in the last 200 which he ran in ~29.0, but he still set a NR of 2:14.35 and finished more than 10m clear of 3rd place. A few tenths slower in the first 600 and he has a great chance of breaking 2:14.
-Jake Wightman ran a far more measured race to ensure he didn’t collapse in the last 200: 52.5 through 400 and 1:47.2 (54.7) through 800 before kicking with a ~26.6 last 200. A smart race, but the fact that his final three 200 splits went 27.1 - 27.6 - 26.6 indicates that he left some time on the table. In a perfect 1k time trial you’d expect someone to be barely hanging on in the last 200.
-Everyone else ran a gutless race for 3rd place. Nobody except Wightman was within 3.5 seconds (!) of Arop at 800m. Clayton Murphy placed 3rd in 2:15.73 and according to the race analysis his final 100m was 12.5/12.6 seconds, which moved him up from 8th to 3rd. His first 100m was a 14.1 (compared with 12.6/12.8 for Arop and Wightman) and that didn’t even come close to winning him the race to the back of the field. His 200m splits from start to finish were 27.3 - 27.1 - 27.6 - 27.6 - 26.1 with that huge last 100. From 400 to 800 he ran Ingebrigtsen’s 1500 pace. That’s not an honest gauge of his 1k potential. I’d like to know what happens when he and Hoppel go through 600 in 1:19.0, not 1:22.0.
While their times would improve going out a bit harder. I doubt they would have improved by a full 2 seconds in a one k (at least on that day). 2 secs is a lot to make up in an 800/1k.
Oh, I agree. I was just saying they could have been a lot closer than their PBs indicate, and using that race as a specific example of why many athletes’ listed 1k PBs aren’t an accurate reflection of their real ability. Plus, neither Hoppel or Murphy exactly had career years last season. Take 2016-1:42.93-Olympic bronze-on fire Clayton Murphy and maybe he runs 2:13.xx though.
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Wohlhuter's 144.10 880y/1:43.5c 800m in '74 was as good as his 1000m the same summer.
It was an 880y WR and superior to the 1:43.7 800m WR at the time.
And it was essentially equivalent to the 1:43.5 and 1:43.44 800m WRs that Juantorena would run in '76 and '77.
Wohlhuter was not quite as good in '76 for his Montreal bronze as he had been in '74.
1:43.5 is good. No one in the world has run faster than 1:43.26 the last two years.
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Bra wrote:
get rish wrote:
He can and will run faster than 1:46. Sub 2:14 is hard.
No current American runner has a shot unless Brazier gets healthy.
Hobbs Kessler will take a shot in the next year or two.
2022
1:46.87-2:16.46-3:36.63(3:34.36 PB)
2023
1:45.80-???-3:32.61
His progression alone would put him somewhere in the range of 2:15.00-2:15.2 and he's a lot closer to being fit than Brazier.
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Impala31 wrote:
No way a 400/800 runner gets it. 2:13 is no joke.
You need a 1:42/43 + 3:28/29 guy to beat that.
Wohlhuter PRs were 1:43.4 and 3:36.4 (mile was 3:53.3).
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John Wesley Harding wrote:
Impala31 wrote:
Sure they can probably run faster than that. But 2 second is a lot. It's like 3sec in the 1500.
And keep in mind that the next challenger will be as inexperienced in the 1000m as thos guys. So even if he has 2:13 in his legs, finding the good race and actually performing at 100% potential is almost impossible. That's why you likely need a guy that has a 2:12 potential to break 2:14. So a 1:43/3:35 guy won't make it. Unless he has the race of his life in a race won in 2:11-2:12.
I agree that hitting the race at 100% potential is extremely difficult given how infrequently it’s raced, for sure. That’s a big reason why Wohlhuter’s time still makes him #11 in history. I’m not sure I believe 2:13.9 is quite as difficult as you do, but it’ll take a great runner with great circumstances to lower the mark.
You have no idea how much I’d like to see a great 1k with a stacked field of fully fit guys aggressively chasing fast times, on one of those days like this year’s Oslo 1500 where everyone is setting PBs/NRs - I believe it’s possible for the World all-time list to be significantly rewritten if things fell into place. Marco Arop leads through 800 in 1:45.8 with Wanyonyi/Kipsang/Cheruiyot/Habz/Gourley/Giles/Burgin/Laros/Nuguse/Hoppel/Bol in pursuit and not giving up too much ground and you could wind up with a slew of 2:13s and 2:14s.
What you described happened in Lausanne in 2016, all in peak shape, 5 days after Rio 1500 final and 2 days before Paris Diamond league 800m, so it's interesting to compare. Souleiman, Kiprop, Lewandoski, Biwott, Silas Kiplagat, Centrowitz, Filip Ingebrigtsen etc
Pacing was very good with 2 pacers, last pacer until 750m. spits were 52:8/1:45.9.Results :1 : Souleiman (1:42.9/3:29.5 guy, 1.43.5 2days later, 4th in the 1500 5days before) -> 2:13.49
2 : Biwott (1:43.5/3.30.1) -> 2.13.89
3 : Kilitit (1:43.05 2 days later, 3:39) -> 2:13.9
4 : Kiprop (1.43.15/3.26.6) -> 2:14.23
5 : Lewandoski (1.43.73 2 days later, 3.37 only at that time, 3:31 later) : 2:14.3
The remaining 8 didn't break 2:16. Centrowitz, recent olympic champion, 5th in 2:16.7.
So, yes, if we could see this kind of race every year we would have more 2:13/2:14 guys in the all time list. But still, not easy to break even 2:15, and Wohlutter performance is kind of an outlier given his PBs. There is a reason why only 13 men broke 2:14 in history. It's true the 1000 isn't raced very often but still a lot more than the 2miles for example. A LOT of the all time greatest 800 or 1500 runners ran several 1000 in their career. However those who broke 2:14 were almost all world class in both the 800 and 1500. In addition to the 4 above, here are the 9 remaining :
Ngeny (1:44.49 but splitted 1:44.56 the day of his 1000m WR, so likely sub 1:43, 3:43 guy) : 2:11.96
Coe (1:41.7/3:29.7) : 2:12.18
Cram (1:42.8/3:29.6) : 2:12.88
Makhloufi (1:42.6/3:28.7) : 2:13.08
Kimwetich (1.43.0) : 2:13.56 (drafted by Ngeny who ran another 1000 a few weeks before his WR, in 2:12.5)
Kaki (1.42.2/3.31) : 2.13.62
Morceli (1:44.7/3.27.3) : 2.13.73
Wightman (1:43.6/3.29.2) : 2.13.88
Baala (1:43.15/3.28.9) : 2.13.96
I hope that answers all the "Wohlhuter ran only 1:43.9/3:36" posts, implying anybody running sub 1:44 can break 2:14 anyday, which is far from being true.
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Impala31 wrote:
John Wesley Harding wrote:
I agree that hitting the race at 100% potential is extremely difficult given how infrequently it’s raced, for sure. That’s a big reason why Wohlhuter’s time still makes him #11 in history. I’m not sure I believe 2:13.9 is quite as difficult as you do, but it’ll take a great runner with great circumstances to lower the mark.
You have no idea how much I’d like to see a great 1k with a stacked field of fully fit guys aggressively chasing fast times, on one of those days like this year’s Oslo 1500 where everyone is setting PBs/NRs - I believe it’s possible for the World all-time list to be significantly rewritten if things fell into place. Marco Arop leads through 800 in 1:45.8 with Wanyonyi/Kipsang/Cheruiyot/Habz/Gourley/Giles/Burgin/Laros/Nuguse/Hoppel/Bol in pursuit and not giving up too much ground and you could wind up with a slew of 2:13s and 2:14s.
What you described happened in Lausanne in 2016, all in peak shape, 5 days after Rio 1500 final and 2 days before Paris Diamond league 800m, so it's interesting to compare. Souleiman, Kiprop, Lewandoski, Biwott, Silas Kiplagat, Centrowitz, Filip Ingebrigtsen etc
Pacing was very good with 2 pacers, last pacer until 750m. spits were 52:8/1:45.9.Results :1 : Souleiman (1:42.9/3:29.5 guy, 1.43.5 2days later, 4th in the 1500 5days before) -> 2:13.49
2 : Biwott (1:43.5/3.30.1) -> 2.13.89
3 : Kilitit (1:43.05 2 days later, 3:39) -> 2:13.9
4 : Kiprop (1.43.15/3.26.6) -> 2:14.23
5 : Lewandoski (1.43.73 2 days later, 3.37 only at that time, 3:31 later) : 2:14.3
The remaining 8 didn't break 2:16. Centrowitz, recent olympic champion, 5th in 2:16.7.
So, yes, if we could see this kind of race every year we would have more 2:13/2:14 guys in the all time list. But still, not easy to break even 2:15, and Wohlutter performance is kind of an outlier given his PBs. There is a reason why only 13 men broke 2:14 in history. It's true the 1000 isn't raced very often but still a lot more than the 2miles for example. A LOT of the all time greatest 800 or 1500 runners ran several 1000 in their career. However those who broke 2:14 were almost all world class in both the 800 and 1500. In addition to the 4 above, here are the 9 remaining :
Ngeny (1:44.49 but splitted 1:44.56 the day of his 1000m WR, so likely sub 1:43, 3:43 guy) : 2:11.96
Coe (1:41.7/3:29.7) : 2:12.18
Cram (1:42.8/3:29.6) : 2:12.88
Makhloufi (1:42.6/3:28.7) : 2:13.08
Kimwetich (1.43.0) : 2:13.56 (drafted by Ngeny who ran another 1000 a few weeks before his WR, in 2:12.5)
Kaki (1.42.2/3.31) : 2.13.62
Morceli (1:44.7/3.27.3) : 2.13.73
Wightman (1:43.6/3.29.2) : 2.13.88
Baala (1:43.15/3.28.9) : 2.13.96
I hope that answers all the "Wohlhuter ran only 1:43.9/3:36" posts, implying anybody running sub 1:44 can break 2:14 anyday, which is far from being true.
Nobody said anybody running sub 1:44 could break 2:14 anyday, you are having fictional arguments with yourself. People disagreed with your characterization of needing to run 1:42/3:29 to do so, which is patently false considering the man with the record ran nowhere near that
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A truly phenomenal record from Rick, one of the most underrated US track guys there is. I've posted in a couple threads before about just how great Rick was and always enjoy seeing him get respect on the boards. He was a small guy, bouncing high up on his toes but he managed to compete with the huge figures of Juantorena and the other great middle distance runners of the 70s. Next year he'll join the likes of Marcello Fiasconaro and Peter Snell as having held national records for half a century and I don't see anyone in the next year breaking his 1k.
As others have mentioned, a healthy Brazier would be the only one I could see breaking it. That said, I believe guys like Clayton Murphy and Nick Symmonds have taken shots at it and come up short so it's still no guarantee even if you have a solid sandwich of PRs at the other distances. Even if you find the rare 1000m race, it's not easy to come through in 1:47 and keep going!
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Jon Snow-man wrote:
Nobody said anybody running sub 1:44 could break 2:14 anyday, you are having fictional arguments with yourself. People disagreed with your characterization of needing to run 1:42/3:29 to do so, which is patently false considering the man with the record ran nowhere near that
Have you ever heard about "the exception that proves the rule"? If i'm wrong, show me all the guys who were far from this abililty and ran faster than Wohlhuter? There must be plenty.
I've done enough work to explain my thoughts and prove my point. I'm still waiting for anything besides the laziest argument "one guy did it so you are wrong and stupid".
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