Emmanuel Korir tribute (what's going on) thread...

Give anti doping control to not US or GB countries(example:Russia or China) and you will have close to this number cases

Not only taking tests, but deciding what is doping and what is not

Well a connection is pretty obvious. I'm not saying this points to anything conclusive but if my training partner got suspended for doping (failed test, whereabouts, by any means) and I was involved in that sort of stuff myself, I would hope that scared me enough to at least take a hiatus. I guess in this case the optic isn't good because Korir seemed to be running well basically right until the time Saruni got his suspension (end August '22). Bad coincidence and if I was Korir I'd be extremely annoyed at my guy for creating this optic (I'm sure he is).

As for the ankle injury, well okay. It's sad that a guy at his level with his accomplishments would have to keep running hurt just to collect appearance fees. It's weird - he doesn't look hobbled and usually an ankle injury isn't something you can't really run through - especially the the 800 especially if it's "unbearable" but okay, the "African correspondent" doesn't lie. I guess.

Yeah I'm sorry the logic doesn't add up here though.

So his ankle is injured badly enough he can only run 30 miles a week at 7 minutes per mile but he can still race 800 meters on it. If it's not as bigger deal now and it had just set him back in training, I would kind of expect a 1.42.0 800m runner to have rounded into slightly better racing shape by his third race now and I watch these races and I have to be honest, I'm not seeing any laboring or imbalance but I guess that's just me.

I must be just too cynical with respect to the situation in Kenya, his training partner and the fact he looks like a mid-level college guy right now, less than a year removed from winning a world title and running 1.43.2

Others say E K is limited by a bad ankle. Those are not my words.

If I think about an injury I can or could train through, hamstring.

I wish T&F were like other big time professional sports regarding an honest injury report for 100 top athletes per event.

I don’t know about this “Korir x 30mi./7:00 = 1:48” calculation, but I don’t think you’re really open to other logical explanations, Stitchmo. You have decided that Korir’s 3 terrible races means he’s doping, and you’ve convinced yourself that that is nearly irrefutable logic.

You are seeing it in the lens you want to see.

For one, Saruni refused a test in Kenya not El Paso. Were they still training partners at that juncture? I’m asking because I have no idea. Saruni’s contract may have been up after 2021 and he might’ve started doing his own thing. We simply don’t know. He was likely off the AIU RTP so did he think he was in the clear?

Second, Korir’s situation clearly did not have this pitfall. We’ve seen nothing of him refusing tests or not competing at events with testing. After the Saruni situation, he raced 3 times and his third was his best of the season (1:43.2) and 4 weeks after.

For a Western athlete, maybe competing injured is weird, but there is financial motivation. Korir likely doesn’t have the support a Wightman has. I find it unlikely to connect the dots you have but I understand the cynicism of course.

Caleb Dressel might know.

apnews.com

Caeleb Dressel fails to qualify for swimming worlds after 22nd place in 50 freestyle

Two years after winning five gold medals at the Tokyo Olympics, Caeleb Dressel has failed to qualify for the swimming world championships.

Link:apnews.com/article/851930428e606e19b84...

This sort of thing happens for myriad different reasons.

A "pretty solid" 400 runner who is either off sauce, hurt, out of shape, or some combination of the 3, or just 1 one of them, is not just "getting into" diamond league 400s.

Since a 45+ guy from Japan just did, it is not so farfetched. But the point is he is clearly not able to run fast right now. In past years when his 800 form was bad he’d run the 400 at Kenyan Trials. It will be far worse/more embarrassing if he likely gets bounced in rd 1 of the 800 running 1:47 at Trials there then running 46-47 which might get him into the final. Connect the dots.

John, the actual (only) explanation given was that he has an injured ankle and is toughing it out, presumably to make a living.

What are the other logical explanations you want me to be open to because there hasn't been another one given and you certainly haven't provided one.

What I did is take this explanation, watched his races this year where he visibly does not look to be in duress at all and said in my opinion that doesn't seem plausible. I might be wrong but it's my opinion.

I didn't start/come up with the 30mpw, 7min/mile thing - get your facts right.

As for why it's not unreasonable to entertain the possibility of something else?

1) He's the reigning Olympic and World Champion in the span of the last 23 months who is on a unprecedented run of poor form. It's not just the finishing times it's visually what we are seeing because he looks like a totally different runner.

2) His training partner refused to be tested and was banned 2 years. Why did he refuse testing - well most athletes who aren't doping don't refuse tests and get banned 2 years. The association there is troubling.

3) We can't move away from what we know about the state of doping in Kenyan athletics. Is it equally as bad in other countries? Yes. But Korir is from Kenya so the connection is relevant.

So let's get back to the other logical explanations other than an ankle injury - what are they?

Sometimes 1:42 guys just get hurt. Ask Donavan Brazier.

His (and Saruni's) coach Paul Ereng came out of nowhere to win Olympic gold in 88 at barely 21, and it never got better for him than that.

Johnny Gray accused his Kenyan rivals of doping on the LetsRun podcast a few years back.

And I remember this quote from Peter Elliott :

"I remember before the 800m final I saw one of the Kenyans' agents before the race and I asked him who he thought would win, and he said 'Paul Ereng.' Well at that time he wasn't a favourite and he had lost a previous race at Crystal Palace. But he won it. So when I saw the agent again before the 1500m final I asked him again about who he thought would win. And he said 'Peter Rono.'
"At the time, he had only won the Kenyan trials, and I don't think he ever won another race. But he has gone down in history because he got it right when it mattered."
Elliott is right. Rono - who became the youngest Olympic 1500m champion at the age of 21 years and 62 days - never did win another major race.

I remember when Seb Coe couldn’t make the 1988 Olympics off his juice.

An absurd assertion. Ereng in 1989 raced 17 800s including 2 NCAA finals , a World Indoors final and 8 high-level European meetings. His record? 16-1 with 1 loss. One of the best 800 seasons ever. He repeated as World Indoor Champ in 1991. His decline in form really was in ‘92. He broke 46 (45.6h) in 1987 and while he came out of nowhere in 1988 to British runners, I’m sure the man was known in Kenya breaking 46 and likely having other marks of note.

You haven’t addressed my counterpoints at all. There’s no question Saruni was caught with his pants down. But why hasn’t Korir (as the more tested athlete) had this issue if it was so simple. Is there some testing breakthrough in August of ‘22 that the two were now so vulnerable to? Are you so sure that Saruni was even still a training partner by August ‘22? To your Kenya point, doesn’t it seem pretty plausible that Saruni after an all time stinker of a season in ‘22 tried to get some pharmaceutical help in Kenya and got caught red-handed?

I understand you think he looks OK physically but have you not considered an athlete racing and working out at 80% but unable to perform at a world class level (100%) in an explosive event? The US is riddled with 400 guys who a season or two ago ran consistently 44-45low but now would run a full season of 46s if they didn’t just DNF instead. They would look fine to my untrained eyes but would be unable to go full speed. Korir is not some flash in the pan as a 44.53/1:43.1 guy in 2017. He should speak more on it but injuries seem a lot more likely than him deciding he can’t beat the tests any more and going cold turkey.

Yeah nothing you’ve written in this post is a new argument or new information to me. And I thought it was fairly clear that I knew who brought up the 30 mpw, 7 min/mile thing and was not attributing that to you.

I don’t feel the need to invent an explanation for why someone has drastically underperformed in their first 3 races of the year. Like I said in my first post on the thread, it doesn’t take anything special for someone to only be in 1:47-1:48 800 meter shape. Tendinitis preventing him from doing speed and/or volume, lifestyle choices, long Covid, toxoplasmosis, a pair of ill-timed minor illnesses, a loss/lapse in motivation resulting in him not training from October through March or not training consistently even now, going off PEDs - there are countless explanations for why someone can be 3-5 seconds off of great 800 form. I simply think that the wise, measured conclusion at this point is that there is nothing conclusive, and we don’t know why he’s only run 1:47.71 so far. If new information comes out or he never breaks 1:45 again, by all means, have at it.

The observation that he often looks like he’s battling fatigue while running well but hasn’t exhibited that this year as some indication he’s no longer doping is particularly queer logic to me.

So, summary.

You believe this kind of unprecedented drop in form is due to an ankle injury (btw let me point out this from a completely random and unvetted twitter post from Michelle Katami an athletics africa journalist) and I believe something else.

I also never said it was conclusive, in fact I purposely mentioned multiple time so far it's just opinion - and the reason I do that is a) because it is and b) because I know people yourself get so wound about about things they read on this messageboard and constantly misinterpret them as people claiming fact.

At the end of the day we have someone who lays claim to being one of the best ever in this event and as Olympic champ, World champ (context, Coe, Kipketer never achieved combo) and the 6th fastest man in history is out there running at a middle of the pack college level and it's not just a bad race, it's his current form. Be as wishful and fearful in your thinking as you need to be mate.