I believe everyone has a kick, we all have the creatine phosphate system that gives us this quick burst of energy. Its there and I'm sure in a mile this system is not depleted. How do you access this while tired? Well its a survival instinct, perhaps shorten your cadence to trigger it, Fight to the end or Flight accept defeat. At the end I think this comes down to how strong you are mentally. Being fit is one thing but if you're weak minded you will likely allow others to outkick you.
Are kickers born or made? Or is kick somewhat psychological? Lex and Leo Young comparison
High School Running
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With my very limited knowledge, in a slow race it is more down to nature. If the competitors have not been fatigued in the race, it comes down to sprint speed and fast twitch muscle fibres, which are largely genetic factors.
In a fast race, it is more about who is simply less tired, which is about fitness and the training they have done to develop that fitness. I’m probably very wrong but that’s my uneducated take on it.
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I have heard of identical twins named Johnston or Johnson where one would outkick the other by three or four minutes over 10K. Neither one can spell or comprehend grammar so it can't be mental.
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Nature v. nurture wrote:
stupid science b1tch wrote:
Here's where you're wrong. While identical twins start out with the same DNA, during development, mutations occur during cell replication which causes genetic differences.
I'm aware of that. To what degree is it altered though? (Do you have a study you can point me to?) I don't believe DNA is drastically altered.
Not "drastically" altered. But altered enough that identical twins are not 100% identical.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
Nature v. nurture wrote:
Didn't John Walker have an amazing kick? This was a different generation than me, so I'm not super familiar with their racing strengths, though I do recognize their names.Both Scott and Walker were tremendous runners but were 1500/5000m while Ovett, Coe and Cram were 800/1500m.
I disagree with labeling Ovett an 800/1500 man while stating Walker was a 1500/5000 man. Ovett was simply a slightly better 800/1500 runner than Walker. By 1977, Walker was suffering lower leg issues. His training was off by 1977 World Cup 1500m. World Cup format was not and is not a championship-type format. Walker was a 800/1500 athlete who was at his peak in 1975 & 1976. Ovett was a 800/1500 athlete at his peak, 1977 to 1980.
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XY. wrote:
I have heard of identical twins named Johnston or Johnson where one would outkick the other by three or four minutes over 10K. Neither one can spell or comprehend grammar so it can't be mental.
I've heard of them. Aren't they the guys who let their intern ride in a helicopter?
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stupid science b1tch wrote:
Nature v. nurture wrote:
I'm aware of that. To what degree is it altered though? (Do you have a study you can point me to?) I don't believe DNA is drastically altered.
When scientists recently read the DNA of 381 twin pairs, they reported that, on average, so-called identical twin pairs differed by 5.2 mutations. This is tiny on the scale of 3 billion letters but it is an average. Thirty-nine of these pairs actually differed by more than 100 mutations, while 38 pairs did not differ at all at the level of their DNA.I don't feel like doing a deep dive on genetics to understand this, but this goes to show there are differences that may account for their different running abilities. Maybe Leo got the genes to code for more fast-twitch fibers than Lex. Injury history may also account for these differences. Nobody can say for certain, though.
Another aspect of the kick that often gets left out is one's race strategy. Having a true kick - meaning actually accelerating in the final portions of the race - requires a lot of patience, enough self-awareness to not go out too fast while also positioning yourself in the pack so that you're not making frequent accelerations. I think the differences between the brothers are more genetic, but racing tactics could also account for these differences.
Maybe you should contact Stanford to let them know their research using identical twins is all useless since you know so much more than the PhDs there. Let them know how ignorant they are [sarcasm].21 -
I don’t get why people say Lex doesn’t have a kick. He made some serious moves in the last lap of the NON mile. While Leo did beat him, Lex still had a fast kick and was coming in hot
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XY. wrote:
I have heard of identical twins named Johnston or Johnson where one would outkick the other by three or four minutes over 10K. Neither one can spell or comprehend grammar so it can't be mental.
+1
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Wallalalalala wrote:
I don’t get why people say Lex doesn’t have a kick. He made some serious moves in the last lap of the NON mile. While Leo did beat him, Lex still had a fast kick and was coming in hot
Yeah, I wouldn't rule out Lex developing more of a kick in the future. He had the third fastest final lap in the NON mile after Simeon and Leo. I'll admit I was hoping that Lex would beat Connor due to Connor's smack talking leading up to the race. If Lex hadn't been positioned so far back heading into the last lap, he definitely would have gotten him.
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Nature v. nurture wrote:
stupid science b1tch wrote:
I don't feel like doing a deep dive on genetics to understand this, but this goes to show there are differences that may account for their different running abilities. Maybe Leo got the genes to code for more fast-twitch fibers than Lex. Injury history may also account for these differences. Nobody can say for certain, though.
Another aspect of the kick that often gets left out is one's race strategy. Having a true kick - meaning actually accelerating in the final portions of the race - requires a lot of patience, enough self-awareness to not go out too fast while also positioning yourself in the pack so that you're not making frequent accelerations. I think the differences between the brothers are more genetic, but racing tactics could also account for these differences.
Maybe you should contact Stanford to let them know their research using identical twins is all useless since you know so much more than the PhDs there. Let them know how ignorant they are [sarcasm].Why would I do that? I'm sure they're also aware on genetic mutation. Do they say otherwise, or are you just being pissy because your premise was not correct?
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stupid science b1tch wrote:
Why would I do that? I'm sure they're also aware on genetic mutation. Do they say otherwise, or are you just being pissy because your premise was not correct?
Listen, brah. my premise was correct. Identical twin research is significant. I'm not saying L & L are attached at the hip. They have had different training due to injury.
My question was already answered by a poster above, one of the twins was injured.
Also, don't link to some dumba$$ Canadian school. Are you a dumba$$ Canadian? I'm aware that McGill is the #1 or #2 university in Canada, however Canadian academics are a joke.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
MedinaRunner wrote:
Are they Identical twins? I didn’t think they were but a kick is something that is practiced and learned.
It seems that John Walker and Steve Scott had learning disorders when compared to the British guys.
Well, here is some food for thought regarding that: 1986 Zurich Grand Prix Invitational 1500m
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Jumbo207 wrote:
The thing that always seemed unique to me about Lex and Leo is that neither twin was consistently “better” than the other. They seemed to switch who came out on too from week to week. Lex’s injury this winter and the focus for him on the 5k with Leo focused on shorter stuff has differentiated them a bit this year. But it seems like all other sets of elite distance runner twins in the past had a “fast” twin and a “slow” twin.
There were famous twins that switched places from time to time being the faster twin. Brad and Brent Hauser and Calvin and Alvin Harrison come to mind.
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Nature v. nurture wrote:
stupid science b1tch wrote:
Why would I do that? I'm sure they're also aware on genetic mutation. Do they say otherwise, or are you just being pissy because your premise was not correct?
Listen, brah. my premise was correct. Identical twin research is significant. I'm not saying L & L are attached at the hip. They have had different training due to injury.
My question was already answered by a poster above, one of the twins was injured.
Also, don't link to some dumba$ Canadian school. Are you a dumba$ Canadian? I'm aware that McGill is the #1 or #2 university in Canada, however Canadian academics are a joke.
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