Before 1980 distance runners from western countries mostly believed that things like steroids would over build your muscles, add weight, and make you slower. There was no EPO and the closest thing to it for enhancing distance running performances was blood doping. Eventually the idea that steroids, HGH, etc. could help a distance runner by speeding up recovery and allowing you to train more and harder began catching on. It seems that Eastern Bloc coaches and athletes might have figured this out much sooner. Lots of people suspected that Kuts was taking something along those lines. The East Germans may have figured that out as well. But there were never stories about Soviet runners other than Kuts and I've never heard stories about DDR runners other than Cierpinski.
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Straub?
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I would say given the times and the circumstances that the odds are pretty good no?
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jacksprat wrote:
Straub?
Yeah, maybe.
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The biggest advantage Cierpinski had was that he had state sponsorship, which included some form of doping and plenty of testing. The GBTC, on the other hand, were all sleeping in an efficiency apartment that was so packed that they took turns sleeping in the hallway. I am sure Florida and other clubs had similar experiences.
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East German Doping Machine wrote:
BroScienceDude wrote:
Cierpinski never was a woman though.
In the 70's, there was no miracle drug for long distance running. There was no EPO. Cierpinski went to high altitude training in Bulgaria and South America, just like Shorter went to Boulder.
Sure they might have taken other stuff, but to quote Lance, that's all "low octane".
The East Germans and Russians had success in women's running because they gave them testosterone and/or male hormones.
The Chinese might have done the same in the 90's. They were also never able to replicate the same on the men's side.
Cierpinski won his gold medals running 2:10 and 2:12. You don't need doping for that. Ryan Hall (very faithful Christian) would have finished over a mile ahead of him with his 2:04 AR.
There were blood transfusions being used by distance runners back in the 70s. If the Finns were using blood transfusions - you can rest assured other countries were using them (transfusions weren't illegal in the 70s yet).
The East German doping program centered around the anabolic steroid "Turinbol," which is a potent steroid with high anabolic properties. Used in smaller dosages, Turinbol would benefit a marathon runner. Recovery from hard workouts would greatly be improve as steroids combat the high cortisol levels produced by intense workouts. Plus the athlete would feel more aggressive in their training & racing (increased testosterone levels). In addition, androgens have been shown to increase Hct/Hgb 7% -- 10%.
So, Cierpinski could have been using small dosages of Turinbol benefiting from improved recovery from hard workouts, training & racing more aggressively & receiving a slight increase in Hct/Hgb.
This seems like it would be the normal preparation of an East German distance runner. 😉
Okay, I'll bite. But if it's so plausible why was it not accepted?
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HRE wrote:
jacksprat wrote:
Straub?
Yeah, maybe.
HRE, I know you from many posts past. It seems to me that it was a given that Cierpinski cheated. Do you know about the politics that were involved, because to me that is what allows Cierpinski to remain the double Olympic Champ. What was the process that kept Shorter from being the defending champion?
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Jed Clampett wrote:
HRE wrote:
Yeah, maybe.
HRE, I know you from many posts past. It seems to me that it was a given that Cierpinski cheated. Do you know about the politics that were involved, because to me that is what allows Cierpinski to remain the double Olympic Champ. What was the process that kept Shorter from being the defending champion?
People certainly are taking it as a given that Cierpinski cheated and I am not saying he didn't. But a big reason it's taken as a given is because his name is supposed to be on a list of doped DDR athletes. A while ago I tried to find the list mostly because it seems that nearly everyone cites it as their reason for believing Cierpinski was doped and I wanted to see for myself that he's there and what he was given. Being unable to find it myself whenever a thread about him comes up and his presence on that list is cited as proof that he doped I make a point of asking people referencing the list if they've actually seen the list and his name on it and if so could they tell me how to find the list too. The closest I've come to getting an answer has been "Frank Shorter says he's seen it." If I knew Frank well I'd ask him if he could let me have a look. But I don't.
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Shorter was the number 1 ranked marathon runner in the world 73/74/75. Cierpinski was a 8:30 something steeplechase that pulled away from Frank and looked pretty fresh at the end. The East German has been named in the infamous Stazi files. I think that's fair food for thought. Also, why does Frank seem so bitter and make such a fuss about it? Come on, it's an Olympic Gold medal for cripes sake. And then there's Kardong. It's a lot like Raelene Boyle, an Australian sprinter at the 72 Games who received 2 silver medals behind Strecher in the 100/200, a runner who was decently 'manned up' at the time. Two silvers? Two golds - what seems better?
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The East German has been named in the infamous Stazi files.
Okay, you've said the magic words that get me to ask if you've actually seen those files or just heard or read of them?
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No, I haven't seen the files. Check the photo. Does she look clean to you? Compare her to the other athletes. Wikipaedia is our friend. I hope this helps.
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I don't know half of what you guys do, but...from a video that I saw a few years back, if the subject of doping comes up Waldemar will not talk about it. My question is, what does he not want to talk about? (insert grin here).
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I don't see a photo. But if it's a she it's not Cierpinski.
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Beanstalker wrote:
I don't know half of what you guys do, but...from a video that I saw a few years back, if the subject of doping comes up Waldemar will not talk about it. My question is, what does he not want to talk about? (insert grin here).
Why would he want to?
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HRE wrote:
Beanstalker wrote:
I don't know half of what you guys do, but...from a video that I saw a few years back, if the subject of doping comes up Waldemar will not talk about it. My question is, what does he not want to talk about? (insert grin here).
Why would he want to?
I'm making the point that he's surely guilty. Why would he not?
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If the DDR had such an effective doping program for the marathon, why was Cierpinski their only decent distance runner in’76 & ‘80? They had no one in the 5 or 10.
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Beanstalker wrote:
HRE wrote:
Why would he want to?
I'm making the point that he's surely guilty. Why would he not?
Your answer is exactly why I can't imagine he'd want to talk about doping, at least as it applies to him. Your mind is made up. There'd be no point for him to discuss doping with someone like you because there's probably nothing he could say that would convince you he hadn't doped so why bother? If I was in his place I would rarely discuss doping with anyone regardless of whether I'd done it or not.
This post was edited 12 minutes after it was posted. Reason provided: correction42 -
HRE wrote:
Beanstalker wrote:
I'm making the point that he's surely guilty. Why would he not?
Your answer is exactly why I can't imagine he'd want to talk about doping, at least as it applies to him. Your mind is made up. There'd be no point for him to discuss doping with someone like you because there's probably nothing he could say that would convince you he hadn't doped so why bother? If I was in his place I would rarely discuss doping with anyone regardless of whether I'd done it or not.
Was Frank Shorter the first and only person who accused Cierpinski of cheating? I admit that I did not read any of the stories during the period he won the Marathon.
Perhaps the problem is that Cierpinski was the first known cheater in "Athletics."20 -
HRE wrote:
Beanstalker wrote:
I'm making the point that he's surely guilty. Why would he not?
Your answer is exactly why I can't imagine he'd want to talk about doping, at least as it applies to him. Your mind is made up. There'd be no point for him to discuss doping with someone like you because there's probably nothing he could say that would convince you he hadn't doped so why bother? If I was in his place I would rarely discuss doping with anyone regardless of whether I'd done it or not.
His not wanting to talk about doping is exactly why I can't imagine him being innocent. My mind is made up, just like yours is for you, through experience and information that I've gleaned through the years.
The information has apparently given you cause, not me. Respectfully, I'll take everything that I've learned through the years and Frank's word versus anyone's on these boards.
I stand by my comment, there's a reason Waldemar won't talk about it.
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Beanstalker wrote:
HRE wrote:
Your answer is exactly why I can't imagine he'd want to talk about doping, at least as it applies to him. Your mind is made up. There'd be no point for him to discuss doping with someone like you because there's probably nothing he could say that would convince you he hadn't doped so why bother? If I was in his place I would rarely discuss doping with anyone regardless of whether I'd done it or not.
His not wanting to talk about doping is exactly why I can't imagine him being innocent. My mind is made up, just like yours is for you, through experience and information that I've gleaned through the years.
The information has apparently given you cause, not me. Respectfully, I'll take everything that I've learned through the years and Frank's word versus anyone's on these boards.
I stand by my comment, there's a reason Waldemar won't talk about it.
My mind is not made up. Logically, how do you decide that because I say that I'd really like to to see Cierpinski's name on that list that my mind is made up? I recognize that there's a good chance he was on stuff he shouldn't have been. No one doubts that doping was a big part of East German sports. I sure don't. But it does seem odd to me that so many people here post that they're positive Cierpinski was doping because they "know" his name is on a list of dopers that those people have never seen.
Now let's look at the business of why Waldemar won't talk about doping. You see that as evidence he did. Obviously there is a reason, perhaps more than, one but explain to me why, if he's guilty, he doesn't simply lie about it? He's too honest to lie but not too honest to cheat?And also explain to me what he has to gain by talking about doping with someone like you who acknowledges his mind is made up. That means that even if he didn't dope there's nothing he can say that will get you to believe that, so again, why would he bother? To push this idea a bit further, can you think of anything Cierpinski could say in a discussion of doping that would cause you to question seriously your belief that he's guilty?
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