As to the number of reps, the idea, I take it, is that they are being prepared for running fast with a lot of lactic acid in their legs in 1500-5000m. Interestingly, Cram would run 10x400m at 57 on 60 seconds rest (always 15s per 100m), even in 1:42.9/3:46.3 shape. He would do faster 300s but wasn't one for the mid to low 50s 400s in workouts in contrast to someone like El G (10x400 on 30s rest? in 53-54).
This is a speed endurance workout. The long rest is for two reasons - they are supposed to be fully recovered (or close to it) for each rep, and that kind of recovery takes more time at altitude.
I did a workout in college that was 5 x 400 in 55 with 4-5 minutes rest, and I ran 3:48 a couple weeks later (probably should have run a couple seconds faster as I spent most of the race in lane 2). These guys are clearly faster than I ever was, so they are running slower relative to their 800/1500m pace, which allows more reps, and with shorter functional rest (as theirs is at altitude while mine was at sea level).
The long rest is for two reasons - they are supposed to be fully recovered (or close to it) for each rep, and that kind of recovery takes more time at altitude.
Just wanted to reinforce this point: I assume the long rest was in part a function of being at altitude (though I'm not actually sure where they did the workout). Maintaining your speed while training at altitude is a challenge. So:
- on a micro level, they're probably taking more rest than if they were doing an identical workout at sea level;
- on a macro level, they might not feel the need to a workout like that in the first place if they were doing a whole training block at sea level, because their overall training balance between speed and endurance would be tilted a little more toward speed at sea level.
The guys obviously did this workout or else it's unlikely they would have said it publicly.
The rest is what makes it do-able.
Ask yourself, if your pr/pb is 54 secs for 400m, could run 60sec 9 times off 4 mins rest???? A fair chance I would say, and most of us aren't as aerobically trained as those guys.
So if they can run 48/49 for 400m 55sec ain't so crazy with 4 mins rest.
when I was in college I did 4x 400 in 55-56-55-54 with 4 min rest and I wasn’t anywhere near as good. Was doing 40 miles per week etc.
I’d imagine dudes who are faster at 800 and faster at 5k could do several more reps.
Were you doing your workouts at 7000ft altitude?
I think a lot of people are overlooking how you need to modify workouts for altitude. They could have driven 2+ hours round trip to lower altitude for a speed workout, but Coach Smith decided to get high end speed intervals (for distance guys) at home with longer rest.
Sahlman ran 3:38 recently, about 58.3 sec per 400m.
So 9 reps 3 sec faster than race pace is not that ridiculous, but impressive if he was relaxed.
I trained with a 3:35 guy who would have struggled to run this session. The new spikes allow for better recovery following a workout like this according to Ritz from a recent interview so that helps. Rough on the muslce fibers and a lot of acid in the blood with a session like that. Hard to argue with their results so I don't think it was too hard.
The long rest is for two reasons - they are supposed to be fully recovered (or close to it) for each rep, and that kind of recovery takes more time at altitude.
Just wanted to reinforce this point: I assume the long rest was in part a function of being at altitude (though I'm not actually sure where they did the workout). Maintaining your speed while training at altitude is a challenge. So:
- on a micro level, they're probably taking more rest than if they were doing an identical workout at sea level;
- on a macro level, they might not feel the need to a workout like that in the first place if they were doing a whole training block at sea level, because their overall training balance between speed and endurance would be tilted a little more toward speed at sea level.
He says in the podcast they were in Sedona... so a drop to 4,350 from 7,000 feet.
Depends on the athlete but ~ 7x 400 w similar rest or a bit more is excellent work for connecting 800/1600 and 1600/3200 athletes (At HS level most 3200 runners are really future 5000/10000/ half marathon)
Both NP athletes are capable of 1:50 or faster
9x is a bit much but probably 55.5 alternating leading
There aren’t any HS kids going <4 without <50/1:51 capability
Later in the podcast, did anyone else catch the workout that Colin mentioned from his senior year at NP before Arcadia?
Leo was sick, so he did the workout with Lex.
4 x 1 mile @ 4:12, 4:16, 4:16, 4:16.
He didn't say the rest interval.
This is insane and right at 2-mile race pace, but 4 miles worth?
To be frank, almost not believable. Thoughts?
Other great high school runners over the years have done similar stuff. Solinsky, Derrick, Rupp. And when I saw the video of NP last year running those sets of 800 in 2:00 and then a sub :60 400 off of 60s rest.....yeah I'm a believer.
they are both longer distance runners than 800 runners. their strength is strength .the limiting factor of both of their 800s are top end speed for someone like them it is impressive but entirely possible. they also usually workout in Sedona Wich is not at altitude .
Later in the podcast, did anyone else catch the workout that Colin mentioned from his senior year at NP before Arcadia?
Leo was sick, so he did the workout with Lex.
4 x 1 mile @ 4:12, 4:16, 4:16, 4:16.
He didn't say the rest interval.
This is insane and right at 2-mile race pace, but 4 miles worth?
To be frank, almost not believable. Thoughts?
Why is that so unbelievable? A common workout design for 3k-800 training is to run 4 x race distance/2. So 4x400 @ 800, 4 x 800 @ 1500, 4 x mile @ 3k with ~5 min rest. These are great specific workouts to do in the late stages of training after you build up a certain base of with short reps/high volume workouts. This is a workout that just about everybody includes in their training at some point. So yeah, this is a very attainable workout for those guys.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Later in the podcast, did anyone else catch the workout that Colin mentioned from his senior year at NP before Arcadia?
Leo was sick, so he did the workout with Lex.
4 x 1 mile @ 4:12, 4:16, 4:16, 4:16.
He didn't say the rest interval.
This is insane and right at 2-mile race pace, but 4 miles worth?
To be frank, almost not believable. Thoughts?
Why is that so unbelievable? A common workout design for 3k-800 training is to run 4 x race distance/2. So 4x400 @ 800, 4 x 800 @ 1500, 4 x mile @ 3k with ~5 min rest. These are great specific workouts to do in the late stages of training after you build up a certain base of with short reps/high volume workouts. This is a workout that just about everybody includes in their training at some point. So yeah, this is a very attainable workout for those guys.
4x400 is common for 800. I would say 3x800 is more appropriate/common for 1500, and 2 MAYBE 3x1600 for 3k - as you increase distance that formula starts to break down pretty quickly, and if you want one step forward to 4x1.5 miles for 5k that would be brutal and maybe not possible?
That said - I don't doubt that they could do it - and don't necessarily even think it's a bad idea, depending on context.
56-55-56 - 56-56-56 - 56-55-55 with 4' rest. I don't know if it was straight 9x400 either because NAU often breaks their fast stuff into sets with long rest, which makes it even more manageable.
I haven't done this exact session but my PB is similar to Colin's and my teammates and I have done workouts that are very similar, combination of 300s and 400s with long rest between reps and sets.
Why is that so unbelievable? A common workout design for 3k-800 training is to run 4 x race distance/2. So 4x400 @ 800, 4 x 800 @ 1500, 4 x mile @ 3k with ~5 min rest. These are great specific workouts to do in the late stages of training after you build up a certain base of with short reps/high volume workouts. This is a workout that just about everybody includes in their training at some point. So yeah, this is a very attainable workout for those guys.
4x400 is common for 800. I would say 3x800 is more appropriate/common for 1500, and 2 MAYBE 3x1600 for 3k - as you increase distance that formula starts to break down pretty quickly, and if you want one step forward to 4x1.5 miles for 5k that would be brutal and maybe not possible?
That said - I don't doubt that they could do it - and don't necessarily even think it's a bad idea, depending on context.
In college I did 4x800 @ 1500 pace every year as an 8 guy. It's mentally tougher because of the length but it feels about the same as 4x4. I can't speak for the 4xmile workout but after seeing some similar workouts my teammates have done I would say it's tough but also doable. Maybe someone will have to try it and report back to us to confirm if it's possible.
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