I was surprised with how good she was coming to Oregon (as a Junior class?) 32:33 ranked 4th UK senior level which is still her PB (she has since marginally improved her other track PBs, and is 73/2:34 on the roads). Sounds like they recruited a top 10K runner for a middle-distance oriented program. Mismatch for sure.
they weren't an MD team though. They had one of the best 10k runners on the team in Baez. Hull won the 3k, DMR, and 1500 at NCAAs that year, as well as placing 3rd individually in cross country. The Oregon women got 3rd in the nation that XC season!
It sounds like she was overtrained and burned out as a junior athlete - a story we've seen thousands of times before - Mary Cain, Efraimson, Sarah Baxter, Claudia Lane, Caitlyn Collier and more. Her junior coach is more to blame than her college coaches, to be honest.
Glad someone pointed this out. I think both coaching situations sucked.
It sounds like the regime change at Oregon was justified. Robert Johnson got raked over the coals for his weight and body image obsessions, but it sounds like Helen Lehman-Winters may also have deserved her fate. I do think that the worst part of this, in my interpretation, was the Ducks coaching staff forcing a strength and volume based 10K runner to conform to the middle-distance regimen (easier for the coach to administer? Lazy coaching?) and then blaming the athlete for not improving their 10K performances.
I’ve now watched the video. It’s worth watching. There are a lot of bad things she references, but here’s the worst part:
(1) runner discloses prior history of eating disorder before joining team
(2) coach acknowledges
(3) runner struggles
(4) runner makes a comment that after a bad workout that her legs feel heavy
(5) coach responds by asking “are you heavy?” and then tells her to work with the nutritionist
(6) runner relapses “badly” into eating disorder
I’m honestly shocked by this. She doesn’t explicitly say it was Helen but she basically says as much without saying it. I’ve given her a pass on these issues thinking it was just Johnson but I’m suspecting I was mistaken in that regard.
There is literally nothing wrong with what the coach did. You can't honestly say a coach recommending a nutritionist is the cause of an eating disorder.
You have to realize as well that the girl's account is clearly exaggerated. A boring story does not get clicks or views. But even the exaggerated account of the facts shows nothing wrong.
I’ve now watched the video. It’s worth watching. There are a lot of bad things she references, but here’s the worst part:
(1) runner discloses prior history of eating disorder before joining team
(2) coach acknowledges
(3) runner struggles
(4) runner makes a comment that after a bad workout that her legs feel heavy
(5) coach responds by asking “are you heavy?” and then tells her to work with the nutritionist
(6) runner relapses “badly” into eating disorder
I’m honestly shocked by this. She doesn’t explicitly say it was Helen but she basically says as much without saying it. I’ve given her a pass on these issues thinking it was just Johnson but I’m suspecting I was mistaken in that regard.
There is literally nothing wrong with what the coach did. You can't honestly say a coach recommending a nutritionist is the cause of an eating disorder.
You have to realize as well that the girl's account is clearly exaggerated. A boring story does not get clicks or views. But even the exaggerated account of the facts shows nothing wrong.
If you can’t see what’s wrong with the above interaction then I pray to God that you aren’t a coach.
I always find it ironic when coaches at Oregon are so resistant to working with an athlete to find something that works but then bang on about Bill Bowerman like he wouldn't rip them a new as*hole for their self-absorption.
It sounds like the regime change at Oregon was justified. Robert Johnson got raked over the coals for his weight and body image obsessions, but it sounds like Helen Lehman-Winters may also have deserved her fate. I do think that the worst part of this, in my interpretation, was the Ducks coaching staff forcing a strength and volume based 10K runner to conform to the middle-distance regimen (easier for the coach to administer? Lazy coaching?) and then blaming the athlete for not improving their 10K performances.
I’ve now watched the video. It’s worth watching. There are a lot of bad things she references, but here’s the worst part:
(1) runner discloses prior history of eating disorder before joining team
(2) coach acknowledges
(3) runner struggles
(4) runner makes a comment that after a bad workout that her legs feel heavy
(5) coach responds by asking “are you heavy?” and then tells her to work with the nutritionist
(6) runner relapses “badly” into eating disorder
I’m honestly shocked by this. She doesn’t explicitly say it was Helen but she basically says as much without saying it. I’ve given her a pass on these issues thinking it was just Johnson but I’m suspecting I was mistaken in that regard.
I don't want to seem unsympathetic, but SPEAKING AS A DOCTOR: if that interaction supposedly causes a runner to relapse into an eating disorder, then that runner SHOULD NOT have been running competitively at that point in time to begin with.
When the smallest thing could trigger a relapse, as a doctor you have to understand that the athlete should stay away until they are healthier.
I am not saying this to be mean or critical, but rather as a doctor concerned about the athletes health. Eating disorders are never "cured" and the athlete shouldn't be put in situations like that until they are no longer physically or mentally vulnerable. clearly this athlete was not there yet (as evidenced by a relapse).
I’ve now watched the video. It’s worth watching. There are a lot of bad things she references, but here’s the worst part:
(1) runner discloses prior history of eating disorder before joining team
(2) coach acknowledges
(3) runner struggles
(4) runner makes a comment that after a bad workout that her legs feel heavy
(5) coach responds by asking “are you heavy?” and then tells her to work with the nutritionist
(6) runner relapses “badly” into eating disorder
I’m honestly shocked by this. She doesn’t explicitly say it was Helen but she basically says as much without saying it. I’ve given her a pass on these issues thinking it was just Johnson but I’m suspecting I was mistaken in that regard.
I don't want to seem unsympathetic, but SPEAKING AS A DOCTOR: if that interaction supposedly causes a runner to relapse into an eating disorder, then that runner SHOULD NOT have been running competitively at that point in time to begin with.
When the smallest thing could trigger a relapse, as a doctor you have to understand that the athlete should stay away until they are healthier.
I am not saying this to be mean or critical, but rather as a doctor concerned about the athletes health. Eating disorders are never "cured" and the athlete shouldn't be put in situations like that until they are no longer physically or mentally vulnerable. clearly this athlete was not there yet (as evidenced by a relapse).
You think forcing an athlete with a history of an eating disorder to keep a journal of everything they eat would end well?
I don't think you comprehend difficult decision's input. His point is that if notionally neutral or ostensibly immaterial comments are enough to trigger a person with known eating disorder problems, then that person needs to take a break from running. And if tracking meals is a trigger, it strikes me difficult decision would advise a stand down from running. I don't see the basis for questioning this line of thinking.
I don't want to seem unsympathetic, but SPEAKING AS A DOCTOR: if that interaction supposedly causes a runner to relapse into an eating disorder, then that runner SHOULD NOT have been running competitively at that point in time to begin with.
When the smallest thing could trigger a relapse, as a doctor you have to understand that the athlete should stay away until they are healthier.
I am not saying this to be mean or critical, but rather as a doctor concerned about the athletes health. Eating disorders are never "cured" and the athlete shouldn't be put in situations like that until they are no longer physically or mentally vulnerable. clearly this athlete was not there yet (as evidenced by a relapse).
You think forcing an athlete with a history of an eating disorder to keep a journal of everything they eat would end well?
Please don’t doctor anymore.
it could actually save their lives. if the journal shows 500 calories, they know to step in.
there is no solution to an eating disorder, but probably one of the worst things you can do is say "just don't keep track of what you are eating at all" because that person probably has a tendency or propensity to skip meals. this is because they won't acknowledge missing meals because they are so used to it they won't think twice.
but to reiterate my first point - if she's so singularly focused on improving her times at all costs, she should not have been competing. it is not healthy. the unfortunate reality is people with eating disorders live much healthier lifestyles after stopping competitive athletics. As a doctor you have to decide what is more important - her olympic dreams or her life.
I’ve now watched the video. It’s worth watching. There are a lot of bad things she references, but here’s the worst part:
(1) runner discloses prior history of eating disorder before joining team
(2) coach acknowledges
(3) runner struggles
(4) runner makes a comment that after a bad workout that her legs feel heavy
(5) coach responds by asking “are you heavy?” and then tells her to work with the nutritionist
(6) runner relapses “badly” into eating disorder
I’m honestly shocked by this. She doesn’t explicitly say it was Helen but she basically says as much without saying it. I’ve given her a pass on these issues thinking it was just Johnson but I’m suspecting I was mistaken in that regard.
There is literally nothing wrong with what the coach did. You can't honestly say a coach recommending a nutritionist is the cause of an eating disorder.
You have to realize as well that the girl's account is clearly exaggerated. A boring story does not get clicks or views. But even the exaggerated account of the facts shows nothing wrong.
And it's an entirely one-sided account. I don't know or care about these coaches, yet I can recognize that we haven't heard what they actually said and it's unfair to judge the situation fully without that. This board is certainly swift to leap to judgment of these two coaches for various other reasons, and this anecdotal testimony is more than enough for those already inclined.
As a coach, it always amuses me when athletes that didn't perform at a certain race where I had athletes on the podium complain that the training is not working.
As a coach, it always amuses me when athletes that didn't perform at a certain race where I had athletes on the podium complain that the training is not working.
You sound like my college coach. It’s my fault if I blow up, but it’s to your credit if I do well. Everything is in my own head! I’m just not trying hard enough. I don’t care enough. My 19yo self believed you. I spent years devaluing my own self-worth.
I tried to watch the entire video but couldn’t do it. Hung in there for a couple minutes but this histrionic young woman was unbearable. I felt sorry for her after reading some of the posts. I felt sorry for Oregon coaches after watching the video.
To me her video was fine. Many points resonated and going to any school and training and competing in track can be a challenge. I wouldn't judge her based off the video and her point of view is as valid as anyone's. I competed for a my way or the highway coach years ago. Left that program and went on to be on a national championship team. I don't think she is inaccurate in many of the things she claims.
It is unfortunate that she had such a bad experience. The NCAA is a beast, especially the level she came in.
I coached for a while and it was always a challenge adjusting the Euro/international athletes to the level of competition that is required week in and week out over here. The PAC12 meet is probably more competitive than Euro U23s. Also over there everything is adjusted for the athlete but over here the schedule is set. You don’t feel good this week, screw it we will jump on a train and go to a different meet next week. Not over here.
Not to sound cold but dealing with athletes that had previous eating disorders is one of the most complicated situations. In this case offering professional help sent her into a downward spiral. Sounds like she got her situation under control before coming here but she wasn’t fully well. As a coach if one comment can break an athlete it is pretty difficult to get anything done.
I used to tell my team, there are probably 150-200 runners that have the potential to be All American every XC season, no margin for error
As a coach, it always amuses me when athletes that didn't perform at a certain race where I had athletes on the podium complain that the training is not working.
One year in college, my team qualified for NCAA XC nationals. I ran really well at NCAA's and was close to "on the podium" (in the upper half of AA - a huge step up from any previous performance) but the rest of my team ran horribly. In retrospect, we had all been put through a blast-furnace of intensity for the second half of the season, and most of us didn't have the base to absorb it all and run well at NCAA's. That training may have "worked" for me that one season, but it didn't for anyone else (and during a couple other seasons with essentially the same training, I blew up spectacularly at the end).
It seems like both you and your athletes (even if some of them are Olympians and you're an incredibly accomplished coach) need an attitude adjustment. Your athlete's comments indicate that they view any success as theirs, and any failures as on you (the coach). Your comment seems to indicate you view it as the opposite - success is the result of your training (because it works for some), therefore any failure is on the athlete. Not only that, but it "amuses" you that they suggest the training may not be working for them even though some others performed well.
A successful coach-athlete setup should be a partnership, which would include (and rely upon) mutual dedication, trust, communication, constructive feedback, etc.
From the video, that seemed to be lacking at Oregon. From this comment, it clearly isn't the norm everywhere, even if some of your athletes are winning races.
You think forcing an athlete with a history of an eating disorder to keep a journal of everything they eat would end well?
Please don’t doctor anymore.
it could actually save their lives. if the journal shows 500 calories, they know to step in.
there is no solution to an eating disorder, but probably one of the worst things you can do is say "just don't keep track of what you are eating at all" because that person probably has a tendency or propensity to skip meals. this is because they won't acknowledge missing meals because they are so used to it they won't think twice.
but to reiterate my first point - if she's so singularly focused on improving her times at all costs, she should not have been competing. it is not healthy. the unfortunate reality is people with eating disorders live much healthier lifestyles after stopping competitive athletics. As a doctor you have to decide what is more important - her olympic dreams or her life.
The starting point was the insinuation she was over weight/heavy and therefore eating too much.
You heard one persons point of view. It is not uncommon for someone to “hear” something that wasn’t said but because of a persons bias or insecurity they “heard” something that wasn’t said.
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