Drugs - Yes. Now, more than ever in the past, anyone can order PEDs & research PED techniques online. The effects of this cannot be underestimated. Even high school kids can easily do this now, whereas in the past these drugs and the knowledge about them were hard to get and risky.
I highly doubt the fast times in HS races is from drug use.
Which then leads me to believe that fast times in pro athletics is more driven by shoe tech than drugs.
The very first reply immediately discounted drugs in high scool-age runners. Here's another poster doing the same. Really? Why haven't El G's records been broken by several runners in any of a number of races? The people trying to do so are tested, especially, specifically, and immediately after any such attempt. That's why. When times seem unrealistic in a large group (some of whom have won the genetic lottery) which has never been tested, don't drugs come to mind? 20 years ago, testing for EPO was ineffective. In US high school competition today, it is non-existant.
Go look at how often a person ran with in 2-3s of El G record since it was set. There have never been a ton of guys running sub 3:30. We could very well be in an era of a lot of 3:31 people with no big super star. the top guy is someone who can't break 1:46. That isn't a guy you expect torun 55s. We can check back after a decade of results. And obviously drug testing Kenya isn't helping fast times..
In HS going from 40mpw in the 90s to 60mpw is a huge chunk. The shoes are the last bit so kids are running 3:59 instead of 4:02. Redshirting and earlier training so help but I am not sure either one of those happens a lot more.
The top guy is a guy that runs 1:43. The second best guy is a guy that runs 1:46.
The poster’s point still stands: if the shoes we are in an era of 3:31 people running 3:28 because to the shoes, then El G would be running 3:23 in this era.
Most people assume he would test positive in today's era.... Go look at the 1500m results from 2005--2010. Not a single person breaks 3:29 and you have 8 total sub 3:30 performances. Or 2015-2019 3 guys ran sub 3:30. It is likely that is what our current talent level is like. We aren't 1996-2000 with 4 guys sub 3:29 and 28 sub 3:30 performances. And all the EPO you could inject.
Again let's have a few more years of superspikes and see what happens.
It’s interesting that most of this quality is coming from the younger runners, I.e. high school and college. No one is really challenging El Guerrouj’s world record (yet). That has stood for over 20 years. If it were just better shoes and better tracks, we’d see records being broken en masse on the top end. I think that PEDs have got to play a part in what’s going on.
If it was exclusively or even primarliy shoes, the effect would be seen across ages, sexes, ethnicities, and abilities. Yet we don't see dozens of 3:40 miles. If the shoes can take a 4:10 high school miler to sub-4, or a close-to-4:00 collegiate runner close to 3:50, wouldn't it do something similar for Ingebritzen?
The dramatic effect being discussed affects males ages 16-23 in the United States. Doesn't seem to affect those who wish to break a decades-old Mary Decker record. Doesn't seem to have an effect in Kenya. This poster gets it. It can't be shoes. So-called super shoes are worn all over the world by all kinds of people. Some are both female and niether in high school nor the NCAA.
It’s interesting that most of this quality is coming from the younger runners, I.e. high school and college. No one is really challenging El Guerrouj’s world record (yet). That has stood for over 20 years. If it were just better shoes and better tracks, we’d see records being broken en masse on the top end. I think that PEDs have got to play a part in what’s going on.
If it was exclusively or even primarliy shoes, the effect would be seen across ages, sexes, ethnicities, and abilities. Yet we don't see dozens of 3:40 miles. If the shoes can take a 4:10 high school miler to sub-4, or a close-to-4:00 collegiate runner close to 3:50, wouldn't it do something similar for Ingebritzen?
The dramatic effect being discussed affects males ages 16-23 in the United States. Doesn't seem to affect those who wish to break a decades-old Mary Decker record. Doesn't seem to have an effect in Kenya. This poster gets it. It can't be shoes. So-called super shoes are worn all over the world by all kinds of people. Some are both female and niether in high school nor the NCAA.
Others on the board who know more about this than me have commented how not everyone benefits equally and that elite runners who already have a highly efficient stride tend not to benefit nearly as much in the shorter races. Fast up and coming runners with comparatively inefficient form often benefit far more.
Personally as an older man who can run tempos and half marathons in the 6:40 range, I clearly run faster with a lower heart rate in my next%. Hitting a fast cruise is just a lot easier.
With apologies to Mars Blackmon, it can't all be the shoes.
Whatever is going on is pretty amazing. The kids are putting out some sick times, hopefully it will translate later down the line in international competition.
It’s interesting that most of this quality is coming from the younger runners, I.e. high school and college. No one is really challenging El Guerrouj’s world record (yet). That has stood for over 20 years. If it were just better shoes and better tracks, we’d see records being broken en masse on the top end. I think that PEDs have got to play a part in what’s going on.
If it was exclusively or even primarliy shoes, the effect would be seen across ages, sexes, ethnicities, and abilities.
It’s interesting that most of this quality is coming from the younger runners, I.e. high school and college. No one is really challenging El Guerrouj’s world record (yet). That has stood for over 20 years. If it were just better shoes and better tracks, we’d see records being broken en masse on the top end. I think that PEDs have got to play a part in what’s going on.
It's not PEDS. I referenced NYC which was always the weakest area of distance running in NY state. With uninterrupted training during covid, motivation from social media, good coaching, and yes the shoes these kids have caught up to the rest of the state. In the past the PSAL runners would do poorly in the non seeded section of the 3200. This year they went 2, 3, 4 and many did well at the national meet in all events.
I doubt these kids have suddenly started taking PEDs. Even my son's team, always mediocre and filled with runners who never ran any type of mileage and proper quality, are starting to understand what it takes. They're on strava, they have Garmins and are motivating each other.
Dude get over yourself. You just use that as an excuse because you were slow when you ran in high school. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the sport of running has gotten more popular in recent years due to running influencers on youtube, tiktok, and instagram? It’s definitely more popular than it’s probably ever been, which leads to more runners, which leads to a bigger talent pool. The shoes are not the factor, as if they were every top professional runner would have knocked off a bunch of time the first time they wore “super shoes”.
Interesting topic and the same is happening here in Australia. In my group alone I have had a 10 year old run 17:44 for a 5k parkrun, 13 year old run 2:01.5 800m, 11 year old female run 1:01.4 for 400m.
Shoes yes....in saying that coached kid from age 11 and at 17 before shoes 3:51for 1500m now a 3:56 miler at Ivy league school.
Drugs no
Coaching well I hope so and if I don't get results they will find other coaches. The above mentioned athletes only train with me 1-2x per week. In my city I don't know of any bad coaches.
Collective belief that if someone is running fast why can't they.
Group dynamics I believe plays a part.
As a coach it is fun seeing what athletes can achieve.
Interesting topic and the same is happening here in Australia. In my group alone I have had a 10 year old run 17:44 for a 5k parkrun, 13 year old run 2:01.5 800m, 11 year old female run 1:01.4 for 400m.
Shoes yes....in saying that coached kid from age 11 and at 17 before shoes 3:51for 1500m now a 3:56 miler at Ivy league school.
Drugs no
Coaching well I hope so and if I don't get results they will find other coaches. The above mentioned athletes only train with me 1-2x per week. In my city I don't know of any bad coaches.
Collective belief that if someone is running fast why can't they.
Group dynamics I believe plays a part.
As a coach it is fun seeing what athletes can achieve.
In the younger range, I feel it is all training. I have no clue what a good 5k for a 10 year old is for anyone who trains. See a lot more 10 year olds running 30mpw these days...
We have entire fields putting down times that would have have one of these athletes pegged as a generational talent. It all can't be the shoes.
Training?
Shoes?
Drugs?
Raised expectations?
When you say "kids" are you talking high school? (rule out drug) the others work.
College? Could be all 4 but I doubt drugs comes into play.
I think you can add coaching. Maybe high school coaches are more knowledgeable than they used to.
And, colleges are racing less often than they used to- they're better rested and train more.
Plus, the shoes.
Yeah nobody ever took drugs in college.
If sprinters are down the gym its not exactly a roid free zone!
On distance running I'd say its better tracks better shoes and better trained. If they are college age not some import or mid twenties athlete racing kids then i assume most are clean
It’s interesting that most of this quality is coming from the younger runners, I.e. high school and college. No one is really challenging El Guerrouj’s world record (yet). That has stood for over 20 years. If it were just better shoes and better tracks, we’d see records being broken en masse on the top end. I think that PEDs have got to play a part in what’s going on.
If it was exclusively or even primarliy shoes, the effect would be seen across ages, sexes, ethnicities, and abilities. Yet we don't see dozens of 3:40 miles. If the shoes can take a 4:10 high school miler to sub-4, or a close-to-4:00 collegiate runner close to 3:50, wouldn't it do something similar for Ingebritzen?
The dramatic effect being discussed affects males ages 16-23 in the United States. Doesn't seem to affect those who wish to break a decades-old Mary Decker record. Doesn't seem to have an effect in Kenya. This poster gets it. It can't be shoes. So-called super shoes are worn all over the world by all kinds of people. Some are both female and niether in high school nor the NCAA.
Except the improvement has been ubiquitous! Examples:
1.) 17 HS boys have broken the 4 minute mile in the us. 6 of them (35%) have done so in the last 13 and a half months.
2.) In 2019, the number of D1 NCAA Men to run under 3:43 outdoors in the 1500 was 26. in 2022, it was 142.
2.1) In 2019, the number of D1 NCAA Women to run under 4:20 outdoors in the 1500 was 66. in 2022, it was 118.
3.) The 2020(1), the IOC tightened the qualifying time for the Men's Olympic Marathon with the intent to cap the field of runners at 80. Instead, 106 officially qualified.
4.) Remember the 2021 Women's Olympic Trials 10k where over 50 women qualified, about double than normal?
If it was exclusively or even primarliy shoes, the effect would be seen across ages, sexes, ethnicities, and abilities. Yet we don't see dozens of 3:40 miles. If the shoes can take a 4:10 high school miler to sub-4, or a close-to-4:00 collegiate runner close to 3:50, wouldn't it do something similar for Ingebritzen?
The dramatic effect being discussed affects males ages 16-23 in the United States. Doesn't seem to affect those who wish to break a decades-old Mary Decker record. Doesn't seem to have an effect in Kenya. This poster gets it. It can't be shoes. So-called super shoes are worn all over the world by all kinds of people. Some are both female and niether in high school nor the NCAA.
Except the improvement has been ubiquitous! Examples:
1.) 17 HS boys have broken the 4 minute mile in the us. 6 of them (35%) have done so in the last 13 and a half months.
2.) In 2019, the number of D1 NCAA Men to run under 3:43 outdoors in the 1500 was 26. in 2022, it was 142.
2.1) In 2019, the number of D1 NCAA Women to run under 4:20 outdoors in the 1500 was 66. in 2022, it was 118.
3.) The 2020(1), the IOC tightened the qualifying time for the Men's Olympic Marathon with the intent to cap the field of runners at 80. Instead, 106 officially qualified.
4.) Remember the 2021 Women's Olympic Trials 10k where over 50 women qualified, about double than normal?
Except roughly the same amount of men break 3:30 & 13:00 every year. And again, backwards compatibility is a thing you all keep ignoring.
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