The so-called average fan of T&F and S&D had reason to suspect something after 1976 Olympics. See then East German female swimmers, 1976 Olympics. See then East German and then Soviet women T&F athletes, 1976 Olympics. Have you seen women 800m semifinals, 1976 Olympics, T&F?
You are correct. It became a topic after the 1976 Olympics. Actually during those Olympics, due to the appearance of the East German women. I remember a Miami afternoon talk radio host who totally deviated his normal happy talk and music format to daily rants about the certainty of the East German swimmers doping.
It was not a topic prior to Montreal and certainly not prior to Munich. And when it became a topic it was directed at swimming, not track and field. When Cierpinski left Shorter behind in the final stages of the marathon I remember many of my high school buddies talking about it. They blamed the rain and everything else. Nobody said a thing about doping.
As soon as a saw the header of this thread I was dismayed at the anachronistic ignorance. Lasse Viren would not have been a topic at all, at least not from a cynical perspective. Then it was astonishing that it required so many posts before a hint of clarity. Kudos to Armstronglivs for finally supplying it.
Not all of us are on a waiting list for a nursing home like you and Armstrong.
In those days everybody thought if you were doping it had to cause obvious physical changes, especially in terms of bulk and strength. That's why it was primarily confined to swimming and weightlifting speculation.
I don't remember anything significant in track and field until Ben Johnson's eyes. The public thought if you were a track doper it would look like that.
None of the doping talk would have occurred because the average fan knew nothing about it then. Some still don't.
The so-called average fan of T&F and S&D had reason to suspect something after 1976 Olympics. See then East German female swimmers, 1976 Olympics. See then East German and then Soviet women T&F athletes, 1976 Olympics. Have you seen women 800m semifinals, 1976 Olympics, T&F?
There was suspicion - and justifiable - about E Bloc athletes for sure. But as you are apparently unaware, Finland was not part of the E Bloc. However, in athletic circles discussion of the possibility of Viren blood doping (which wasn't banned) began to arise by the mid seventies.
None of the doping talk would have occurred because the average fan knew nothing about it then. Some still don't.
I'm not sure that even today the average fan is aware of how much an issue doping is. But nearly all even semi serious runners are now and the internet has a lot to do with how widespread that awareness is. I think if there was internet in Viren's time there'd had probably been more awareness, though with Viren specifically it would mostly been about blood doping. Heck, there's been a bit of that here even after all those years.
You are correct. It became a topic after the 1976 Olympics. Actually during those Olympics, due to the appearance of the East German women. I remember a Miami afternoon talk radio host who totally deviated his normal happy talk and music format to daily rants about the certainty of the East German swimmers doping.
It was not a topic prior to Montreal and certainly not prior to Munich. And when it became a topic it was directed at swimming, not track and field. When Cierpinski left Shorter behind in the final stages of the marathon I remember many of my high school buddies talking about it. They blamed the rain and everything else. Nobody said a thing about doping.
As soon as a saw the header of this thread I was dismayed at the anachronistic ignorance. Lasse Viren would not have been a topic at all, at least not from a cynical perspective. Then it was astonishing that it required so many posts before a hint of clarity. Kudos to Armstronglivs for finally supplying it.
Not all of us are on a waiting list for a nursing home like you and Armstrong.
That's one way of admitting your ignorance of the past.
In those days everybody thought if you were doping it had to cause obvious physical changes, especially in terms of bulk and strength. That's why it was primarily confined to swimming and weightlifting speculation.
I don't remember anything significant in track and field until Ben Johnson's eyes. The public thought if you were a track doper it would look like that.
They still do. On threads here there are still observations that distance runners "don't look like dopers".
None of the doping talk would have occurred because the average fan knew nothing about it then. Some still don't.
And I have checkmated you into a whimpering defeat as The NY Times was discussing Viren’s suspected blood doping which meant that this site would have been rife with threads about it. You never quite recognize how limited your intelligence is and so I have to take you to the woodshed repeatedly and yet you somehow remain recalcitrant in your colossal ignorance.
None of the doping talk would have occurred because the average fan knew nothing about it then. Some still don't.
And I have checkmated you into a whimpering defeat as The NY Times was discussing Viren’s suspected blood doping which meant that this site would have been rife with threads about it. You never quite recognize how limited your intelligence is and so I have to take you to the woodshed repeatedly and yet you somehow remain recalcitrant in your colossal ignorance.
Your spluttering proves nothing. The contest you are in is with yourself. It is the only contest that you could win.
The NY Times is not the average fan and never has been. There are media reports of doping in sports in this era and most sports fans remain oblivious of the issue if not in denial, as the level of debate here shows.
And I have checkmated you into a whimpering defeat as The NY Times was discussing Viren’s suspected blood doping which meant that this site would have been rife with threads about it. You never quite recognize how limited your intelligence is and so I have to take you to the woodshed repeatedly and yet you somehow remain recalcitrant in your colossal ignorance.
Your spluttering proves nothing. The contest you are in is with yourself. It is the only contest that you could win.
The NY Times is not the average fan and never has been. There are media reports of doping in sports in this era and most sports fans remain oblivious of the issue if not in denial, as the level of debate here shows.
You have to move the goal posts. You claimed there would not be discussion here about Viren’s blood doping. I proved you incorrect and you then tried to say something about the NY Times not being the average fan which exposed again your ignorance, as it is irrelevant to the point that if it is in The NY Times it would get wide copy elsewhere and inexorably be discussed here ad nauseam by tools such as yourself. It is futile to interact with you as your lack of game renders me bored.
The so-called average fan of T&F and S&D had reason to suspect something after 1976 Olympics. See then East German female swimmers, 1976 Olympics. See then East German and then Soviet women T&F athletes, 1976 Olympics. Have you seen women 800m semifinals, 1976 Olympics, T&F?
There was suspicion - and justifiable - about E Bloc athletes for sure. But as you are apparently unaware, Finland was not part of the E Bloc. However, in athletic circles discussion of the possibility of Viren blood doping (which wasn't banned) began to arise by the mid seventies.
You have bellow average reading ability. I didn't state Finland was in eastern bloc.
You are correct. It became a topic after the 1976 Olympics. Actually during those Olympics, due to the appearance of the East German women. I remember a Miami afternoon talk radio host who totally deviated his normal happy talk and music format to daily rants about the certainty of the East German swimmers doping.
It was not a topic prior to Montreal and certainly not prior to Munich. And when it became a topic it was directed at swimming, not track and field. When Cierpinski left Shorter behind in the final stages of the marathon I remember many of my high school buddies talking about it. They blamed the rain and everything else. Nobody said a thing about doping.
As soon as a saw the header of this thread I was dismayed at the anachronistic ignorance. Lasse Viren would not have been a topic at all, at least not from a cynical perspective. Then it was astonishing that it required so many posts before a hint of clarity. Kudos to Armstronglivs for finally supplying it.
Maybe you are right about before 1976, but, it became a topic for the lay public *at* the 1976 Olympics, including specifically specifically Lasse Viren and blood doping speculation.
Note this would be "during LASSE Viren’s career", and knowledgeable sports fans of a '70s-era letsrun surely would have been aware of the history of "doping in sport", ranging from steroids to amphetemines, to strichnine in the 1908 marathon, and likely some would have created threads about the new doping trend of blood transfusions.
In the NY Times article linked above, the lay public could read these sour grapes (sour kiwis?): ""He has got that extra blood in him," said Ron Dixon of New Zealand."
And in a detailed "history of doping", we can find TV commentators speculating about Viren:
"Since the late 1960s, blood doping, the reinfusion of an athlete's own concentrated oxygen-carrying red blood cells or those of a typed-matched donor, shortly before competition, has been alleged to have been used by European distance runners, cyclists, cross-country skiers and biathletes (Williams, 1980). However, it was brought to the attention of the lay public during the 1976 Summer Olympic Games when several TV commentators suggested that Finnish distance runner Lasse Viren, gold medalist in the 5000 and 10,000 metre races, used blood doping (Zorpette, 2000)."
Your spluttering proves nothing. The contest you are in is with yourself. It is the only contest that you could win.
The NY Times is not the average fan and never has been. There are media reports of doping in sports in this era and most sports fans remain oblivious of the issue if not in denial, as the level of debate here shows.
I thought this thread was about the more knowledgeable sports fan participating in letsrun, and not just the average fan.
One of the most public and one of the earliest accusations of blood doping use took place at the 1976 Olympics during the 10000m finale commentary, when Jim McKay, Marty Liquori and Erich Segal (the author of "Love Story", still a running enhusiast) implied at the ABC-TV studio that Viren may be using blood doping. I had the opportunity to ask directly from Liquori what they actually discussed, and at least he recalled that he didn't accuse Viren of having blood doped and was very reluctant to discuss about the topic, when one of the other hosts brought up the topic on live air.
The Finnish delegation seriously discussed about the possibility of legal actions against the channel. Some sources say they had no case, the accusations were so vague etc. Some sources say that ABC-TV promised not to discuss the issue at the 5000m finale and that was enough for the Finnish team. As it is well known, Viren was asked about blood doping in both press conferences right after both finales, and John Vinocour wrote an article for the Associated Press about the method and Viren.
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