On the basis of one good race we would have to say Wightman is better than Centro - and a lot faster. But that still doesn't make Wightman the best British md runner. The US isn't doing so good if you think Centro is the best you've had.
I clicked on this thread assuming the OP was going to get absolutely destroyed based on the title, but actually the OP made a pretty good argument here. Brought up some points I haven't considered.
I guess I would consider Centro's 1500 gold the be the best U.S. Middle Distance Performance ever... even OP acknowledges that Centro's performances up until this race and after weren't all that insane. But the race itself was, indeed, beyond insane. Either that race or Wottle's 800 gold, whichever you prefer.
I still think Lagat takes the cake for best US middle distance athlete, but not by a ton. There's still plenty of room for a current US athlete to cement themselves as the unquestioned greatest!
As a performance, Ryun's destroying the 1500 wr - and Keino - at the '67 Colosseum Relays far outstrips a one-lap sprint in Rio.
I would go so far as to say the Rio final was the worst championship 1500 I have ever seen, mainly because it was a shuffle for 3 laps and a sprint for one. "Tactical" gives it too much credit. Clueless suits better.
Matt Centrowitz's Rio Gold made him the BEST U.S. Middle Distance Runner Ever
"Best ever" arguments are tough, because it's hard to compare athletes in different eras. But I agree with you that a win is a win and a gold medal is a gold medal. No one cares if you ran the fastest 1500m ever, around your home track, in practice. What matters in competition is that you do it on the biggest stage. And Centro did that. No one in the world was better at that event, at that time on that day, on the biggest stage in the World. You can't take that away from him. He's an Olympic gold medalists.
You kept going on and on about the 2016 race. We get it, he won in 2016, that was great. There is also a lot of other evidence as to why he's the best that you didn't even mention. The 2016 gold solidified it, but his many US titles, two world medals (silver and bronze), as well as indoor world gold (2016 Portland 1500). And 3rd all-time on the US 1500 list, 1.1 seconds off Lagat's mark that is debatable and less than a second off #2. Take away the Rio gold and there was still an argument for him.
On the basis of one good race we would have to say Wightman is better than Centro - and a lot faster. But that still doesn't make Wightman the best British md runner. The US isn't doing so good if you think Centro is the best you've had.
Perhaps but Wightman, despite his fast 800 speed, has yet to close a 1500 in 50.xx like Centro did.
Coe did, and Ryun did, but Jake has not displayed that kind of closing speed yet.
Well said. Such a tactical masterpiece and you see behind him all the guys he outfoxed. Souleiman defeated by a swim move at 450 to go. Kiprop failing to pass him on the straight and running the last turn at a dead sprint in lane 2. Makhloufi having to play roller derby and run nearly in lane 3 to go around Kiprop. All these guys were probably 2-3 seconds better in overall fitness, but couldn’t touch him.
I find myself going back and watching that race again and again, once every few months or so. The version that's on Youtube has, I believe, New Zealand TV's commentary team, and they really tell the story well as it happens, which is part of the charm of watching it again. But yes, absolute tactical brilliance, an example of doing exactly what he knew he had to do to beat each major contender. In 1968 Kip Keino decided he was willing to go balls to the wall in the Mexico City altitude because it was the only way to beat Jim Ryun, who he knew would hold back early on. How that last lap must have burned up his lungs, but he knew if he could just stay on his feet he'd win because he had outsmarted Ryun, who was back there eating up the rest of the field. For me, that 1968 Keino run and Centro's 2016 run are the two best examples of an athlete using their brain (in addition to their physical talent) to grab a gold medal most observers didn't favor them to get.
Ryun broke 4 world records - two of them at only 19. His mile and 1500 records obliterated the previous marks. He "only" got silver at the Mexico Olympics because it was at altitude and he'd had mono earlier in the year. In his era he was far better than Centro ever was, as he was clearly then world's best. Centro is the Josey Barthel ('52 Helsinki) of his era - although Barthel won in a much better time than 3.50.
I do believe Centro is a serious contender for Middle Distance King, his collegiate and professional careers were amazing. That being said, I have to give the nod to Jim Ryun. Not only was he an amazing youth runner, but also produced some amazing times over the 800/1500/Mile distances as a "Professional". Yes, he didn't win a gold medal, but was awfully close, and we can't forget the era he was competing in.
Full breakdown. I believe Ryun has an argument as well.
Category: Lagat(without 3000m), Centro
Global golds: 1, 1
Global silvers: 0, 1
Global bronzes: 1, 1
Outdoor global finals: 3, 6
Indoor global golds: 2(0), 1
Indoor global silvers: 1(0), 0
Indoor global bronzes: 0, 0
Indoor global finals: 3(0), 1
American records: 5(4), 0
800m PR: 1:46.84, 1:44.62
1500m PR: 3:27.40, 3:30.40
Mile PR: 3:48.38, 3:49.26
3000m PR: 7:29.00, 8:20.09 (rarely contested)
Extra Info:
Ages at American middle-distance peak: 30-35, 22-27
Years between first/last global outdoor medals: 2, 5
Worth noting: Lagat could not compete in 2005 world champs. Centro debatably has more longevity if only considering middle distance performances as an American citizen which is kinda funny.
I would go Lagat. Especially if the 3000 is considered middle distance, but even if it isn't. But it is close. 5k is where we start to see big separation.
Ryun — insane talent. But didn’t have to race against many dopers plus never won Olympics.
Lagat — ok yeah maybe he’s the most well-rounded and possibly the best as in sheer performance of medals and times.
Centro — performed the best at the highest level of competition possible, against dopers, when it mattered most.
Let’s be honest - Lagat not being American-born does kind of taint things. He could be from Mongolia, Costa Rica, or the UK and people would say the same thing.
Ryun — insane talent. But didn’t have to race against many dopers plus never won Olympics.
Lagat — ok yeah maybe he’s the most well-rounded and possibly the best as in sheer performance of medals and times.
Centro — performed the best at the highest level of competition possible, against dopers, when it mattered most.
Let’s be honest - Lagat not being American-born does kind of taint things. He could be from Mongolia, Costa Rica, or the UK and people would say the same thing.
“Lagat not being American born does kind of taint things.” How do you explain this taint? I would be more concerned about the taint of doping at NOP, which you seem to ignore as you say Centro had to compete against dopers. Lagat too may be tainted by doping, but not by being born in Kenya.
themildrunmaster wrote: I still think Lagat takes the cake for best US middle distance athlete, but not by a ton. There's still plenty of room for a current US athlete to cement themselves as the unquestioned greatest!
I don't know why people think of Lagat as an American runner in this context though. His culture, heritage, traditions, family, childhood, and national team membership were Kenyan for most of his life and most of his professional career. He is a Kenyan person with US citizenship. That is a thing.
We are not "citizenship units" --- we are people with culture and childhood and traditions. Changing citizenship doesn't change who we are as people. Why do people try to ignore that and "claim" him for America.
Now, if you were talking about Meb (who moved here as a little kid) or Nuguse (who was literally born here), that would a totally different story. Please don't act like you can't tell the difference. There is an obvious difference.
Humans are more than just paperwork. We are the product of our norms, cultures, childhood experiences, and communities.
Do you think Kenyan coaches and fans in 2005 looked at Bernard Lagat and said, "Wow, Americans have gotten good at the 1500m"? Really, you think Kenyans though that?
p.s. I think all three of these runners are awesome. This isn't about that.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
I would go so far as to say the Rio final was the worst championship 1500 I have ever seen, mainly because it was a shuffle for 3 laps and a sprint for one. "Tactical" gives it too much credit. Clueless suits better.
100% correct. The most boring race I've ever had the displeasure to watch.
Great for Centro (the least stupid of all), but come on, there was no tactic or genius in this race. Just a bunch of idiot losers who slowed the f..k down for three laps , to gamble everything on the final lap.
They all deserved to lose for such a disgrace of a "race"
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